Phariseeism

[theoldpaths]

The following is taken from Raymond Woodward's "Because We Are His - Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness". Same author upon which the following link is based upon about Holiness and Nicolaitanes - http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=17658

"Jesus used the word "hypocrite" ("godless actor") to describe the Pharisees seven times in Matthew 23. And yet, He made a distinction between the righteous principles they taught and the unrighteous actions they committed.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

I find it interesting that because the Pharisees were sitting in a place of authority - Moses' seat -, Jesus told the multitudes and his disciples that whatsoever they bid them to observe, they were to observe and do.

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

The following is taken from Raymond Woodward's "Because We Are His - Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness". Same author upon which the following link is based upon about Holiness and Nicolaitanes - http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=17658

"Jesus used the word "hypocrite" ("godless actor") to describe the Pharisees seven times in Matthew 23. And yet, He made a distinction between the righteous principles they taught and the unrighteous actions they committed.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

I find it interesting that because the Pharisees were sitting in a place of authority - Moses' seat -, Jesus told the multitudes and his disciples that whatsoever they bid them to observe, they were to observe and do.

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

Didn't Jesus have a rebellious tone though when He said, "but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not"? Do you think He was really being supportive of the "authority" of the Pharisees when he called them "vipers?" (Matthew 23:33).

[HappyTown]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Didn't Jesus have a rebellious tone though when He said, "but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not"? Do you think He was really being supportive of the "authority" of the Pharisees when he called them "vipers?" (Matthew 23:33).

That's how I take it!

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Didn't Jesus have a rebellious tone though when He said, "but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not"? Do you think He was really being supportive of the "authority" of the Pharisees when he called them "vipers?" (Matthew 23:33).

They were in a position of spiritual authority in the OT still. They were hypocrits because they said and did not. Our righteousness is to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees - they said and did not, but Jesus said to observe and do what they bid you. Those who have a right relationship with God on the inside can submit to God-given authority and obey. Those who do not have a right relationship with God seem to have a problem with submitting and/or doing.

In the NT, the Pastor is in a place of spiritual authority and as Hebrews 13 says 3 times in the same chapter, we are to obey those who have the rule over us.

While they were still in the OT, Jesus told them because they sit in Moses' seat, they were to observe and do what they bid them.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

They were in a position of spiritual authority in the OT still. They were hypocrits because they said and did not. Our righteousness is to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees - they said and did not, but Jesus said to observe and do what they bid you. Those who have a right relationship with God on the inside can submit to God-given authority and obey. Those who do not have a right relationship with God seem to have a problem with submitting and/or doing.

In the NT, the Pastor is in a place of spiritual authority and as Hebrews 13 says 3 times in the same chapter, we are to obey those who have the rule over us.

While they were still in the OT, Jesus told them because they sit in Moses' seat, they were to observe and do what they bid them.

I disagree...the only mediator between God and man is the Man Christ Jesus. WE don't need a Pastor or Pope to go to God about our lives. The only thing a Preacher is called to do is just that...preach the word, and let the word [which is God BTW] complete the work.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

I disagree...the only mediator between God and man is the Man Christ Jesus. WE don't need a Pastor or Pope to go to God about our lives. The only thing a Preacher is called to do is just that...preach the word, and let the word [which is God BTW] complete the work.

Blessings, Rhoni

Though I agree that the only mediator between God and man is Jesus, I somewhat disagree with your disagreement...

For the sake of discussion, Rhonda, let us look at a few translations of Hebrews 13:17...


Heb 13:17

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. KJV

Heb 13:17

17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. NIV

Heb 13:17

17 Obey your spiritual leaders and be willing to do what they say. For their work is to watch over your souls, and God will judge them on how well they do this. Give them reason to report joyfully about you to the Lord and not with sorrow, for then you will suffer for it too. TLB

Heb 13:17

17 Obey your spiritual leaders and submit to them [continually recognizing their authority over you], for they are constantly keeping watch over your souls and guarding your spiritual welfare, as men who will have to render an account [of their trust]. [Do your part to] let them do this with gladness and not with sighing and groaning, for that would not be profitable to you [either]. AMP


I do not believe for a second that the writer of Hebrews intended that one man should lord over another, thus taking this verse to the extreme.

The fact that some may do so (as in, "I AM the pastor...if ya don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the way out!!) is not a sign that we disregard the role of a spiritual figure (pastor) in our lives.

Pastors are admonished to feed the people of God...not beat them. But again, the overbearing should not keep us from submitting to those who operate in love and grace.

Having rule over another is a hard one for some to take because we think this means we lose our identity and are no longer our own person. We mistakenly think that it means someone else is calling the shots for our life and we have no control.

But the fact is, someone has to be in charge. An example of this in the secular world is my boss' boss...he has no people skills. It's his way or the highway...no discussion...just get it done. However, his inability to lead is not an indication that all managers are tyrants.

I am expressing this quite the way I feel it, and am certain you will not agree.

I just know there has to be balance in all things, Rhonda...

[tv1a]

To put it in today's terms, the pharisees preached the evils of television while ignoring the evils of the internet.

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

They were in a position of spiritual authority in the OT still. They were hypocrits because they said and did not. Our righteousness is to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees - they said and did not, but Jesus said to observe and do what they bid you. Those who have a right relationship with God on the inside can submit to God-given authority and obey. Those who do not have a right relationship with God seem to have a problem with submitting and/or doing.

In the NT, the Pastor is in a place of spiritual authority and as Hebrews 13 says 3 times in the same chapter, we are to obey those who have the rule over us.

While they were still in the OT, Jesus told them because they sit in Moses' seat, they were to observe and do what they bid them.

[tv1a]

Don't forget with all the excuses made for condoning legalism, Paul condemns legalism and compares it to witchcraft in Galatians 3:1/

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

I find it interesting that because the Pharisees were sitting in a place of authority - Moses' seat -, Jesus told the multitudes and his disciples that whatsoever they bid them to observe, they were to observe and do.

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

TheOldPaths....please consider this scenario and answer a few questions for me if you don't mind:

John has been going to First Apostolic Church for 2 years, and has been praying for the Lord to give him a godly wife. He likes Denise, a fellow member of his church. Denise is a dedicated sister who loves the Lord. John and Denise both sing on the church's choir. After going out/dating for several few months, John and Denise are in love. After being prayerful about the situation, they feel it it the Lord's will for them to be together.

Before officially proposing marriage, John decides to seek his pastor's blessing. (John happens to be white. Denise is black.) The pastor disapproves of John marrying Denise, and lets him know that tradtionally at First Apostolic, interracial marriage is frowned upon, and always has been. The pastor insists he's not racist, but he just believes that people should "stick to their own kind". So he forbids John to marry Denise simply because of her race.

So...

1...Is this tradition ok with you?

2...Does a pastor have authority to order one saved, Godly member of his church not to marry another godly saint?

3...Is this pastor in line with the Bible by prohibitiing interracial marriage?

4....If John and Denise decide to get married anyway, have they commited a sin ?
-------------

I look forward to your responses.

[IsolatedSaint]

Originally Posted by tv1a

To put it in today's terms, the pharisees preached the evils of television while ignoring the evils of the internet.

How about the evils of cigarette smoking while ignoring the health dangers of cell phones and EMF radiation.