Phariseeism

[Jermyn Davidson]

theoldpaths wrote:

Brother are you not aware that Jesus in Matt 18 gave his future leadership the authority to bind/loose things on earth and that Jesus said that he would bind/loose them in heaven?

In Acts 15-16, there is a very practical example of this; I highy recommend that you read it.

Jesus knew that things would come up in which his own word would not cover it - hence the necessity of his future leadership needing to bind/loose some things that were not covered by His word.

If His word covers everything, then why did Jesus give his future leadership the ability bind/loose some things in the future that he said in response to them - men - bind/loosing some things on earth, that he, in turn, would bind/loose them in heaven?

Make ya think doesn't it?


1399 writes in response:

2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness.


You have to rightly divide The Word of the Lord, not add to it.


You mentioned Acts 15. AWESOME!!

Acts 15:28, 29
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Now imagine with me what Christendom would look like today if the above SCRIPTURES, or principles that directly correlate to SCRIPTURES were the only rules men felt the need to enforce!!!


2 Timothy 3:16, 17
All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


The Pastor can not rise above or separate himself from the source of his authority. It is the Bible that gives him the authority that he is to exercise in the church. If he rises above that authority, or speaks outside of that authority, he's not honoring his Authority.


What does the Bible says about those who add or take away from The WORD of the Lord?

My friend, you have to interpret scripture in light of scripture, not in the darkness of our own understanding. Your interpretation of Matthew 18:18 is incorrect.

[Praxeas]

Again if TOP is right I have to ask why don't they all go back to being Trinitarians even Roman Catholics? Why not look back on our "spiritual fathers" to left the Trinity as rebellious backsliders? Don't DO as the Trinitarians did but obey them.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

I disagree...the only mediator between God and man is the Man Christ Jesus. WE don't need a Pastor or Pope to go to God about our lives. The only thing a Preacher is called to do is just that...preach the word, and let the word [which is God BTW] complete the work.

Blessings, Rhoni

Though I agree that the only mediator between God and man is Jesus, I somewhat disagree with your disagreement...

For the sake of discussion, Rhonda, let us look at a few translations of Hebrews 13:17...


Heb 13:17

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. KJV

Heb 13:17

17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. NIV

Heb 13:17

17 Obey your spiritual leaders and be willing to do what they say. For their work is to watch over your souls, and God will judge them on how well they do this. Give them reason to report joyfully about you to the Lord and not with sorrow, for then you will suffer for it too. TLB

Heb 13:17

17 Obey your spiritual leaders and submit to them [continually recognizing their authority over you], for they are constantly keeping watch over your souls and guarding your spiritual welfare, as men who will have to render an account [of their trust]. [Do your part to] let them do this with gladness and not with sighing and groaning, for that would not be profitable to you [either]. AMP


I do not believe for a second that the writer of Hebrews intended that one man should lord over another, thus taking this verse to the extreme.

The fact that some may do so (as in, "I AM the pastor...if ya don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the way out!!) is not a sign that we disregard the role of a spiritual figure (pastor) in our lives.

Pastors are admonished to feed the people of God...not beat them. But again, the overbearing should not keep us from submitting to those who operate in love and grace.

Having rule over another is a hard one for some to take because we think this means we lose our identity and are no longer our own person. We mistakenly think that it means someone else is calling the shots for our life and we have no control.

But the fact is, someone has to be in charge. An example of this in the secular world is my boss' boss...he has no people skills. It's his way or the highway...no discussion...just get it done. However, his inability to lead is not an indication that all managers are tyrants.

I am expressing this quite the way I feel it, and am certain you will not agree.

I just know there has to be balance in all things, Rhonda...

[OneAccord]

Hbr 13:7 ¶ Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.

Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

When I think of these Scriptures, I think of them in terms of "responsibilty" rather than in terms of "authority". I thought of this on the way to work yesterday morning. Verse 17 says to me that we are to obey those who have the reponsibility to warch over our souls, because they must give account for our souls. Our pastoors (and all ministers) have the responsibility to preach the truth- to teach God's Word for what it says, without adding to or taking from It.

Think of the US president for a minute. He is surrounded by Secret Service agents. They are responsible for him and, because of that responsibility, they find it necessary to restrict his movemnets. But we can't say they have "authority" over him. Theirs is a position of "responsibility for" rather than an "authority over". When we think of a king or a ruler, they have a responsibilty to their subjects- to watch over them, to protect them, to, in essence "serve them". By washing the disciples feet, Jesus provided us with a visual representation of the role of the minister as a servant.

When we focus on the word "authority" rather than "responsibilty" we open the door of to become lords over God's heritage, rather than being servants to those whom we serve. The beauty of American democracy is that it was designed so that the leaders of this country would be the servants of the people. This puts them in the place of responsibilty to serve, rather than giving them the authority to dictate. And thats what the Pharisees were guilty of: dictating, rather than serving. They focused on AUTHORITY, and neglected their repsonsibilty to care for the people. They enforced rules, and, as Jesus said, they neglected the more important things: Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If I were a pastor, I would not want the influence over those I serve that would lead them to do what I say "just because I say it". And I'm certain God would not want me to have that influence either. Because... the truth is...I could be wrong. I could lead people astray, and that would result in my standing at judgement with their blood on my hands. I have the reposnsibilty to speak the truth in love. And, I think we can all agree, there is but one source of truth...the Word of God. God has not given me the authority to add ot take from His Word. Anything I say or do that isn't "authorized" by God's Word is "anathema". No... if I were a pastor (or minister) I would not want to have "authority" over those I serve. But, rather, I would take my responsibilty for and to them very seriously.

[Praxeas]

BTW by this thread is this a passive admittance to being pharisees?

Anyways
Mar 7:6 And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mar 7:7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9 And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.'
Mar 7:11 But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban' (that is, given to God)--
Mar 7:12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother,
Mar 7:13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."

Mat 16:12 Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Mat 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.
Mat 23:14 (OMITTED TEXT)
Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

John called them a brood of vipers
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 21:33 "Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country.
Mat 21:34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit.
Mat 21:35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them.
Mat 21:37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
Mat 21:38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.'
Mat 21:39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Mat 21:40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
Mat 21:41 They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons."
Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
Mat 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
Mat 21:44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him."
Mat 21:45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.

Gee, I wonder what kind of fruits the Pharisees did not have

[TRFrance]

I'm starting to think there are some saints who almost like to be in bondage.

They dont mind being being given, or giving themselves, more and more burdensome extrabilical rules and regulatiions.

... makes them feel more holy, I guess.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I'm starting to think there are some saints who almost like to be in bondage.

They dont mind being being given, or giving themselves, more and more burdensome extrabilical rules and regulatiions.

... makes them feel more holy, I guess.

I don't know why you say that. I can't imagine anyone who likes being in bondage. Heavens...God saved us from it. Why would anyone want to leave the bondage of sin to live in bondage in the Church?!

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Barb

I don't know why you say that. I can't imagine anyone who likes being in bondage. Heavens...God saved us from it. Why would anyone want to leave the bondage of sin to live in bondage in the Church?!

no one goes into bondage knowingly. A person goes into a church feels the spirit, obeserves all the good that is going on on the surface. They are not aware of the powerful cultural underbelly. By the time they find out, it is too late and so they become bitter.

Also, in this context, you don't leave the bondage of sin to live in the bondage of the CHURCH. The church is not bondage, the religious culture is the 110lb ball chained to your leg.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

no one goes into bondage knowingly. A person goes into a church feels the spirit, obeserves all the good that is going on on the surface. They are not aware of the powerful cultural underbelly. By the time they find out, it is too late and so they become bitter.

Also, in this context, you don't leave the bondage of sin to live in the bondage of the CHURCH. The church is not bondage, the religious culture is the 110lb ball chained to your leg.

You are absolutely right...the Church is not bondage.

Hbr 13:7 ¶ Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.

Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

When I think of these Scriptures, I think of them in terms of "responsibilty" rather than in terms of "authority". I thought of this on the way to work yesterday morning. Verse 17 says to me that we are to obey those who have the reponsibility to warch over our souls, because they must give account for our souls. Our pastoors (and all ministers) have the responsibility to preach the truth- to teach God's Word for what it says, without adding to or taking from It.
...
If I were a pastor, I would not want the influence over those I serve that would lead them to do what I say "just because I say it". And I'm certain God would not want me to have that influence either. Because... the truth is...I could be wrong. I could lead people astray, and that would result in my standing at judgement with their blood on my hands. I have the reposnsibilty to speak the truth in love. And, I think we can all agree, there is but one source of truth...the Word of God. God has not given me the authority to add ot take from His Word. Anything I say or do that isn't "authorized" by God's Word is "anathema". No... if I were a pastor (or minister) I would not want to have "authority" over those I serve. But, rather, I would take my responsibilty for and to them very seriously.

I think you make some great points. I view the relationship between the pastor and layperson as being two-way. There are responsibilities on both sides. They lay people do have a responsibility to respect their leaders, as the following verses show:

(1 Peter 5:5-6, NASB)
"You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,"

(Hebrews 13:7, NASB)
"Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. "

(Hebrews 13:17, NASB)
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. "

(1 Timothy 5:17-20, NASB)
"The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. "

But on the other hand, the leadership has a responsibility to the lay people to lead well, to treat their flock properly, and to teach true doctrine:

(1 Peter 5:1-3, NASB)
"Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. "

(Acts 20:28, NASB)
"“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "

(1 Timothy 5:1-2, NASB)
"Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers, the older women as mothers, and the younger women as sisters, in all purity. "

I think that John summed it up well when he told us to "test the spirits to see whether they are from God" (1 John 4:1).

I know that we all have different opinions on what submission and respect entail. I think that there's never a "one size fits all" answer that will cover every situation. I do think that in the end though we are all responsible for testing the spirits. If we find that the pastor is not teaching true doctrine or that he has a spirit that is not lining up with what the New Testament says a leader should be, then we must each pray and trust God to help us decide what to do.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't fall into the camp that says "do whatever the pastor says even if you don't agree." On the other hand, I don't fall into the camp that says "no pastor will ever tell me what to do." I try to find a biblical balance between the two extremes. And I do reserve the right to think for myself and make my own decisions. I have a personal relationship with God...my pastor is not the mediator of that relationship.