Phariseeism

[IsolatedSaint]

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

Ah.....so you admit you're a hypocrite.....and then welcome me to the club of hypocrites you pertain to?


No Hypocrite here.....I was up early this morning being a witness.




Sorry.....I'm not seeking membership with your club.

And what is your definition of being a witness......will you please tell the rest of the class of your witness experiences because apparently we're not out there witnessing like you are and don't seem to be motivated to do so at this time. And why are we spending so much time on this message board?
Because our real "church" lives are so devoid of fellowship and real interaction in the spirit because it is evident that most of us either sit up under tyrannical pastors and church leaders(Pharisees)who rule and reign over us with an iron fist and papal infallibility or under a Pastor that was never called to Pastor to begin with.
So lighten up dude(or dudette)we are just here doing what we should be able to do in our local church assemblies.

[theoldpaths]

That too, welcome to the club of hypocrites.

Just because someone spends some time in this forum doesn't mean that they don't spend time witnessing to the lost.

Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Answering or judging a matter before hearing or knowing the whole thing is not good and premature.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

most change with time...years ago most did not celebrate Christimas but they took a church that did or grandkids come along...
Wise people change when they see they were wrong...
People that did not take medicine take it today...they changed...
So changes are NOT ALWAYS BAD...it depends what we are changing...

We have a sure foundation...we must build on it...if a wall we are building is wrong tear it down start again...
Most of us at times are foolish (Janice) included...when we are all excited we say one thing sometimes when we think things out we see it in a different light...

lol..am I making sense?

And if what we build or our fathers built is good, we don't tear it down.

And if what our fathers destroyed was bad, we don't build again those things that we or our fathers once destroyed.

[stasis]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

The following is taken from Raymond Woodward's "Because We Are His - Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness". Same author upon which the following link is based upon about Holiness and Nicolaitanes - http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=17658

"Jesus used the word "hypocrite" ("godless actor") to describe the Pharisees seven times in Matthew 23. And yet, He made a distinction between the righteous principles they taught and the unrighteous actions they committed.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

I find it interesting that because the Pharisees were sitting in a place of authority - Moses' seat -, Jesus told the multitudes and his disciples that whatsoever they bid them to observe, they were to observe and do.

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

We should review some facts about the Pharisees in Christ's time (and Jewish custom), since you've connected Christ's statement (Matt 23:3) to obedience to pastors.

-----------------------------------
The pharisees sat in Moses' seat, and corrupted themselves in frowardly mixing Mosaic Law with customs of men. In addition to this corruption, they failed to fulfill the physical Mosaic Law... but also failed to fulfill their own superfluous ordinances, let alone fulfilling the 'very image' or spiritual truth of the Law! No wonder they are called vipers. Basically everything they do seems tainted with deadly poison.

Regarding superfluous ordinances, we can observe the process involved in a gentile gaining citizenship, becoming a jew, as set forth by the Pharisees. In addition to the God-commanded requirement of circumcision (valid), there were also added the customary offering of turtledoves and the proselyte baptism (which was originally intended for priestly purification prior to temple duties, or for women post-menstrul), which are not mentioned in Torah as requirements for citizenship or conversion.

But take a look at Mat 3:13-17, Mat 23:3 then Col 2:14-17

The key to understanding how these and similar scriptures correlate, rests in the Jewish customs attached to securing or nullifying a contract.

Two or three witnesses were required to create a contract. The contracting parties would literally act-out the contract, like a skit. In the eyes of the witnesses and judge, this secured the contract. To nullify a contract, the contracted parties would gather among the witnesses and agree publicly regarding nullification. The physical contract would then be placed against a pole and a certain spike be driven through it, marking it nullified (much like a notary seal today).

The nailing of the handwriting of ordinances to the cross (Col 2:14-17)represents the nullifying of the requirement of the fulfillment of ordinances, and customs of men. Paul's understanding and preaching of this led to controversy between the Christian Jews and the Christian Gentiles concerning holy days, circumcision, legal food, etc.
----------------------------------------------

So, with fulfillment of the New Testament, a New Contract enacted and sealed with Christ's blood (which we are likewise bound to, by bearing our cross, participating in the enactment and following him as he wills it), and simultaenous nullification of handwriting of ordinances, we are set free from the laws of men, being made subject to Christ Jesus, who alone is mediator between God and men.

Mat 23:7-13
Summed up: We are to consider no man Master or Father, but Christ.

Does this mean we reject all instruction given by men? Heavens NO!

I Cor 11:1
We are to follow our sub-shepherds (Christ being the primary shepherd), even as they are followers of Christ. Notice... As long as they follow Christ, we follow them. So in a sense, we're merely all just following Christ, which goes back to Christ's commandment that we call no man Master.

If a man is following Christ, and he gives you instruction, YOU FOLLOW IT.

If a man is rebellious, froward, and deceiving himself, you correct him as you are a follower of Christ. This is the commandment of God.

If a child-molesting priest or pastor commands that you drop your children off at his/her home so he can give them a 'special blessing', and says it is God's commandment, do you do this thing? NO!

Christ set us free from the tyranny of men, binding us to him, who all men answer to.


NOW... the problem today is that, as I believe, we are living in a DARK AGE regarding scriptural understanding. You can have a preacher teaching something false, and a congregation member who believes something else (which is also false) contradicting one another, and both are blind in the midst of their conflict.

The apostasy of today illustrates the importance of STUDYING TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED, that we might be able to discern truth as well as instruct with longsuffering and patience toward the building of the house of God. Too often I see intelligent, capable congregants studying too little, or without willingness or strength to bear their cross by speaking up when they know something is wrong (which is pure agape), or Pastors themselves who don't study enough and/or discourage their congregants from a deeper understanding of the word of God in fear that this may lead to questions being raised, and the pastor's embarassment. Most of the time, it's all about 'keeping the calm and the order... don't rock the boat', and this is an easy approach.

This is a common line-of-thinking throughout the history of religion and especially Christianity:
A SIMPLE flock is easier to keep and manage, when you yourself do not study enough in the Word. Also, smooth words and fair speeches about Jesus loving everybody work well for growing and maintaining crowds. Questions are to be avoided or answered ambiguously, especially in the company of others, as these may lead to more questions, and an undoing of an order which is physically comforting and profitable to certain persons.

The rules are similar in both fortune-telling and being a sales-person.

I'm NOT saying all pastors are this way... but I'm beginning to fear it's the majority.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Because trinitarianism was not the original doctrine and the RCC was not the original church.

That is Irrelevant. Protestants came OUT of them. Using your logic they should have stayed. OPs came OUT of Trinitarianism. Using your logic they should have stayed and not rocked the boat. But this shows the flaw in your argument. If someone feels they are being taught false doctrine, your view is they should just shut up and stay in that "boat" while when it suits your agenda then you say they should LEAVE that boat and join another. This is logically flawed.

Trinitarians and the RCC's are NOT Apostolic spiritual fathers regardless of what religious leaders of today will tell you.

Totally irrelevant
The rest of your post is not worth responding to. This is soley about YOUR claims. This is your thread and your claims. If you are right, then when you're pastor is wrong you should just shut up and follow him anyways. But you don't apply this logic all the way through.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Rico

I would say we have already seen the fulfillment of Jesus' intent in the statement he made to His disciples. It's called the New Testament. I do not believe he was extending this type of authority to all future pastors.

I respect your right to your opinion brother.

I'll just share this with you. Paul and Barnabas were not present in Matt 18 where Jesus instituted the right of his future leadership to be able to make binding decisions in agreement. Incidentally, although Jesus taught that in Matt 18, we know that they could not enact it until after Acts 2:38. It was a future church leadership thing. Although Peter followed Jesus, we know that he was not yet converted...

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

After he was converted or born again, he tell others to be converted...

Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Notice repent AND be converted or born again or born of the water and Spirit (Acts 2:38). Being born again is not just a 1 step repentance thing.

So, Paul and Barnabas were not present in Matt 18, yet in Acts 15, they were in a place of spiritual authority and therefore subject to all of the truth that Jesus taught. Paul lacking direct revelation from Jesus about what to do at that particular moment concerning an answer to the 1 question, recognized that it was a question that needed to go the leadership of the church. Paul did the right thing.

Therefore, even though Paul and Barnabas were not present, they implemented what Jesus instituted and were partakers of the process. Paul being the Apostle over all of the gentile churches of whose care fell on him daily, he needed to know what to do and he did the right thing and communicated the ordinances of the apostles and elders to be obeyed by the gentile churches.

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

If it only applied to those present in Matt 18, then Paul and Barnabas should have been excluded. Interesting how God let it be that it happened with Paul and Barnabas showing that church leadership is able to binding decisions WHENEVER, whether it was in the first century or later, a situation came up that leadership needed to have a conference about.

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

2Th 2:14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

The traditions they were taught was "our gospel" (referring to the Apostles)

Paul didn't say that. We must be careful not to add something that is not there.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Right, and not things outside the bible that people teach.

Jesus did in Matt 18 give his future leadership the ability to make binding decisions that Jesus himself said that he would back up in heaven.

This is powerful. What that means is although something may not have been covered by Jesus, he entrusted his future leadership to make binding decisions that would be BOUND IN HEAVEN. Imagine that - things that men on earth would agree to bind, Jesus in heaven would bind in heaven like it is gospel.

That is powerful and shows how much trust Jesus put in the leadership of his future church that he was going to leave in their hands.

Amazing!

And in Acts 15 that is what they did. There was only one question, but after conferencing about it, they ended up actually making more that one decision/rule that was to be communicated and obeyed by all the gentile churches. And God, by his spirit in man, the Holy Ghost, indicated that what James had suggested and became the rule, was good unto Him.

Thank God for Jesus' teaching and a very practical example in Acts of applying that rule. Truly God's word is awesome!

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

The big difference is that they layed aside the commandments of God. The word of God told them to honor their father and mother, but they created a tradition that essentially wiped out that commandment and put in its place something that directly contradicted it.

Apostolic holiness principles do NOT do that.

Luk 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trod one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

The leaven of the Pharisees is hypocrisy...

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Although Jesus bid the multitudes AND his DISCIPLES to observe and do, because of the previous teaching we know that they were NOT to do the traditions that layed aside the commandments of God with a tradition that directly contradicted scripture.

Hey...notice the title of this thread you started? It's about the Pharisees and all that I posted was about them. They had a spiritual issue that lead them to put the traditions of men on par of above the commandments of God

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

If you think that the only thing that Paul wanted to be handed down to be obeyed was just the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then you are sadly mistaken.

You are missing the point. What he passed down was not traditions of man.

1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

Paul's ways were in Christ and was taught in every church.

Where were given to him by revelation of God and confirmed by the Apostles...not traditions of man.

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Part of the ordinances that they were expected to hand down and obey were the ordinances of the apostles and elders that were decided at the conference at Jerusalem.

Exaclty....you don't get it do you? These were men who spoke FOR God and delivered the ordinaces OF God, not made their own up as they went along and then called it "tradition"

As Jesus gave his future church leadership - MEN - the ability to make binding decisions that Jesus himself said he would bind, it goes without saying that because those decisions are BINDING, that they would be transmitted to be kept and obeyed.

lol....so then I suppose at will we can decide God is really a trinity and Jesus is gonna back that up too? You are seriously mistaken. This is the fallen route Rome took and the Mormons take today. Jesus was not saying "whatever new doctrine you make up Im gonna back it up"...you are missing the entire point of authority. He said to God "your word is truth, sanctify them through you truth"...you got this thing backwards. HE is God and we obey. Not WE are God and He obeys. He is the law giver. HE is the one that pronounces truth and salvation, we OBEY and FOLLOW and BELIEVE Him. Jesus is thus saying the same thing he said in the "commissions" go and preach the gospel IN MY NAME and I will be with you always to the end of the earth.

Whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven...it's because they were preaching the New Covenant to the lost world with HIS authority....wow...I didn't really know you guys believed you can just make up any doctrine you want and God will back it up.

Incidentally, who is A.T. Robertson?

Greek Scholar