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  #121  
Old 08-18-2008, 10:24 PM
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A_PoMo A_PoMo is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
I thought Moses wrote the law.

Maybe they interpreted the law?
God wrote the law, through Moses.

They added to the Law and wrote their own law. So I guess we could say there is the Law and then there is the law. Not to mention the oral tradition that was their primary concern.
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  #122  
Old 08-19-2008, 06:44 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
No matter how much you like to say differently, Jesus did not condone saints obeying preachers in things the bible never taught. Sorry. You are wrong.


PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My point is you improperly placed written and oral law togethor. You misplaced what the pharisees taught! I never said you haveto obey everything a preacher said!! I firmly believe in lean not unto thine OWN understanding and in all the ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths.
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  #123  
Old 08-19-2008, 06:51 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

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Originally Posted by theoldpaths View Post
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.



What it does show is that there were traditions/precepts/laws/ordinances that they were taught by those in spiritual authority that were not in writing, but were only verbal, and that they were expected to obey them.

Kinda reminds me of the following...

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

OLD PATHS ask ANY Messianic Jew about TRADITIONS and the ORAL LAW! I am probably more strict in the LAW and teaching than most here doesn't it make me better? NO! My brother you have thrown and rope around your neck as if you are not careful you will negate the Word of God by adding to which is just as bad as taking away and FALL INTO the pit and you will not have EXCEEDED the righteousness of the Pharisees! I believe in holiness standards and anyone that knows we will testify to that! I also believe GOD has called us to GREATER holiness than that which is taught in the Mosaic Covenant as now he is in our hearts trying to lead us into ALL truth! Thus our actions and ways should be in greater measure HOLY as HE is HOLY! You must be careful or you will make mockery of the HS that is in some and is teaching them!
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  #124  
Old 08-19-2008, 06:57 AM
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Monkeyman Monkeyman is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

Great to see my awesome Pastor, Raymond Woodward, getting so much press around here!!!!!

Pretty amazing coming from little ol' Fredericton, NB Canada eeeh???

To check out more from this Cool Pastor, Amazing Church, and Great Looking Music Director, go to: www.capitalcommunity.ca

Funny that The Old Paths quotes from him...we use video!!!!!!!!! Gasp!!! he he he
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  #125  
Old 08-19-2008, 07:01 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

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Originally Posted by stasis View Post
We should review some facts about the Pharisees in Christ's time (and Jewish custom), since you've connected Christ's statement (Matt 23:3) to obedience to pastors.

-----------------------------------
The pharisees sat in Moses' seat, and corrupted themselves in frowardly mixing Mosaic Law with customs of men. In addition to this corruption, they failed to fulfill the physical Mosaic Law... but also failed to fulfill their own superfluous ordinances, let alone fulfilling the 'very image' or spiritual truth of the Law! No wonder they are called vipers. Basically everything they do seems tainted with deadly poison.

Regarding superfluous ordinances, we can observe the process involved in a gentile gaining citizenship, becoming a jew, as set forth by the Pharisees. In addition to the God-commanded requirement of circumcision (valid), there were also added the customary offering of turtledoves and the proselyte baptism (which was originally intended for priestly purification prior to temple duties, or for women post-menstrul), which are not mentioned in Torah as requirements for citizenship or conversion.

But take a look at Mat 3:13-17, Mat 23:3 then Col 2:14-17

The key to understanding how these and similar scriptures correlate, rests in the Jewish customs attached to securing or nullifying a contract.

Two or three witnesses were required to create a contract. The contracting parties would literally act-out the contract, like a skit. In the eyes of the witnesses and judge, this secured the contract. To nullify a contract, the contracted parties would gather among the witnesses and agree publicly regarding nullification. The physical contract would then be placed against a pole and a certain spike be driven through it, marking it nullified (much like a notary seal today).

The nailing of the handwriting of ordinances to the cross (Col 2:14-17)represents the nullifying of the requirement of the fulfillment of ordinances, and customs of men. Paul's understanding and preaching of this led to controversy between the Christian Jews and the Christian Gentiles concerning holy days, circumcision, legal food, etc.
----------------------------------------------

So, with fulfillment of the New Testament, a New Contract enacted and sealed with Christ's blood (which we are likewise bound to, by bearing our cross, participating in the enactment and following him as he wills it), and simultaenous nullification of handwriting of ordinances, we are set free from the laws of men, being made subject to Christ Jesus, who alone is mediator between God and men.

Mat 23:7-13
Summed up: We are to consider no man Master or Father, but Christ.

Does this mean we reject all instruction given by men? Heavens NO!

I Cor 11:1
We are to follow our sub-shepherds (Christ being the primary shepherd), even as they are followers of Christ. Notice... As long as they follow Christ, we follow them. So in a sense, we're merely all just following Christ, which goes back to Christ's commandment that we call no man Master.

If a man is following Christ, and he gives you instruction, YOU FOLLOW IT.

If a man is rebellious, froward, and deceiving himself, you correct him as you are a follower of Christ. This is the commandment of God.

If a child-molesting priest or pastor commands that you drop your children off at his/her home so he can give them a 'special blessing', and says it is God's commandment, do you do this thing? NO!

Christ set us free from the tyranny of men, binding us to him, who all men answer to.


NOW... the problem today is that, as I believe, we are living in a DARK AGE regarding scriptural understanding. You can have a preacher teaching something false, and a congregation member who believes something else (which is also false) contradicting one another, and both are blind in the midst of their conflict.

The apostasy of today illustrates the importance of STUDYING TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED, that we might be able to discern truth as well as instruct with longsuffering and patience toward the building of the house of God. Too often I see intelligent, capable congregants studying too little, or without willingness or strength to bear their cross by speaking up when they know something is wrong (which is pure agape), or Pastors themselves who don't study enough and/or discourage their congregants from a deeper understanding of the word of God in fear that this may lead to questions being raised, and the pastor's embarassment. Most of the time, it's all about 'keeping the calm and the order... don't rock the boat', and this is an easy approach.

This is a common line-of-thinking throughout the history of religion and especially Christianity:
A SIMPLE flock is easier to keep and manage, when you yourself do not study enough in the Word. Also, smooth words and fair speeches about Jesus loving everybody work well for growing and maintaining crowds. Questions are to be avoided or answered ambiguously, especially in the company of others, as these may lead to more questions, and an undoing of an order which is physically comforting and profitable to certain persons.

The rules are similar in both fortune-telling and being a sales-person.

I'm NOT saying all pastors are this way... but I'm beginning to fear it's the majority.

Very Good! Sad as well that preachers have to resort to such low standards to KEEP the sheep!
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  #126  
Old 08-19-2008, 07:04 AM
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Monkeyman Monkeyman is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

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Originally Posted by LUKE2447 View Post
Very Good! Sad as well that preachers have to resort to such low standards to KEEP the sheep!
And here we go, the first stoopid post of the day...I'm sure you have more to come. My pastor doesn't use ANY tactics to keep sheep, trust me on that. And if you knew him like many on here do, he has HIGH standards and is a gentleman to the core.
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  #127  
Old 08-19-2008, 07:20 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

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Originally Posted by Monkeyman View Post
And here we go, the first stoopid post of the day...I'm sure you have more to come. My pastor doesn't use ANY tactics to keep sheep, trust me on that. And if you knew him like many on here do, he has HIGH standards and is a gentleman to the core.
ZIPP.... it just went over your head! You have no idea what I am referring to!

Oh and just so you CAN get it! Stu"oo"pid! LOL! This is what I was referring...

This is a common line-of-thinking throughout the history of religion and especially Christianity:
A SIMPLE flock is easier to keep and manage, when you yourself do not study enough in the Word. Also, smooth words and fair speeches about Jesus loving everybody work well for growing and maintaining crowds. Questions are to be avoided or answered ambiguously, especially in the company of others, as these may lead to more questions, and an undoing of an order which is physically comforting and profitable to certain persons.


Now go eat a banana!
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  #128  
Old 08-19-2008, 07:31 AM
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Monkeyman Monkeyman is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

Quote:
Originally Posted by LUKE2447 View Post
ZIPP.... it just went over your head! You have no idea what I am referring to!

Oh and just so you CAN get it! Stu"oo"pid! LOL! This is what I was referring...

This is a common line-of-thinking throughout the history of religion and especially Christianity:
A SIMPLE flock is easier to keep and manage, when you yourself do not study enough in the Word. Also, smooth words and fair speeches about Jesus loving everybody work well for growing and maintaining crowds. Questions are to be avoided or answered ambiguously, especially in the company of others, as these may lead to more questions, and an undoing of an order which is physically comforting and profitable to certain persons.


Now go eat a banana!
he he he NOW you're 2 for 2!!!! Great batting average...mmm, now you done made ne huuungry for bananas
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  #129  
Old 08-19-2008, 07:33 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
I thought Moses wrote the law.

Maybe they interpreted the law?

That was the problem they created LAW and added to thus what Jesus consistently rebuked them over. Jesus did not come against the commandments of God as that is self contradicting but against the Oral law and traditions of the elders which became law over time.
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  #130  
Old 08-19-2008, 07:36 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Phariseeism

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he he he NOW you're 2 for 2!!!! Great batting average...mmm, now you done made ne huuungry for bananas
I don't think you have a point so keep making up counts that don't exist.

So what was so wrong or St"oo"pid about my ONE sentence? Also I never said anything about your PASTOR in that POST! What I pointed to and agreed with was the very clear typical stupidity of people in the church of both clergy and saint. Good reason you call yourself monkeyman and a knucklehead!
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