Phariseeism

[theoldpaths]

2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness.

Amen! And that includes the 5 fold ministry of Eph 4:11 that we are to submit ourselves to and obey. Just as Jesus instructed the multitude and his disciples to observe and do to those who were sitting in Moses' seat, so we now in the NT are to observe and do what those in spiritual authority over us bid us to observe and do. That includes obedience to scripture and that includes things that are in obedience to principles taught in scripture such as holiness.

Acts 15 is such a good example because a situation rose up that was not covered by Jesus. Paul and Barnabas were already in a place of spiritual authority but they recognized the need to take a question regarding a rule to the rest of the leadership in the NT church - the elders and apostles at Jerusalem.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul didn't receive the gospel by others in spiritual authority before him telling him about it or giving it to him, but he got it from Jesus himself by revelation. Although I'm sure that his gospel was confirmed afterwards by those who were before him. So Paul got some things by revelation but he also had the words of Jesus and he had the other apostles and elders to share things with.

But in spite of that, Paul recognized a situation came up that he did not have revelation for about what to do about it, but he did have the words of Jesus in Matt 18 where Jesus told his future leadership about them being able to bind/loose some things in earth in agreement and the promise that if they did so, that Jesus himself in response to them first binding/loosing some things in earth, would bind/loose them in heaven.

Imagine that, Jesus knew that he would leave the earth and would entrust the managing and leading of his church on earth to men. He also trusted them to be able to bind/loose somethings on earth as well.

So, in Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem and raised the issue, they discussed it, and James was the one who suggested a recommendation which became the rule. Men bound/loosed some things that God showed that he was behind them...

It seemed good unto the Holy Ghost.

God indicated by his Spirit in man somehow that what James had suggested and the rest agreed to, he was behind it. What leadership on earth bound/loosed, Jesus bound/loosed in heaven.

Incidentally, they came up with more rules than the original question of circumcising the gentiles.

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

The decrees were ordained - bound/loosed - of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

decree - From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

And what did Paul say about keeping ordinances/traditions whether they were by WORD or epistles...

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Imagine that, Paul expected obedience to what they had been taught by those who were in a place of spiritual authority over them whether it was in WORD only OR written in an epistle.

What was Paul's attitude towards those who didn't want to keep the ordinances (1 Cor 11:2) but were contentious?

1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

The apostles were so concerned about the church being subject to EVERY ordinance of those who had authority over them outside of the church, then how much more are we to be in submission to those who have spiritual authority over us in the church of the Almighty God.

If God was so concerned about our witness to the world about submitting to every ordinance of man outside of church, don't you think God would be concerned about our witness to the world about submitting to every ordinance of those who have spiritual authority over us IN his church?

Did Jesus say words to this effect? Yes he did...

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

God bless.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Hbr 13:7 ¶ Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.

Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

When I think of these Scriptures, I think of them in terms of "responsibilty" rather than in terms of "authority". I thought of this on the way to work yesterday morning. Verse 17 says to me that we are to obey those who have the reponsibility to warch over our souls, because they must give account for our souls. Our pastoors (and all ministers) have the responsibility to preach the truth- to teach God's Word for what it says, without adding to or taking from It.

Think of the US president for a minute. He is surrounded by Secret Service agents. They are responsible for him and, because of that responsibility, they find it necessary to restrict his movemnets. But we can't say they have "authority" over him. Theirs is a position of "responsibility for" rather than an "authority over". When we think of a king or a ruler, they have a responsibilty to their subjects- to watch over them, to protect them, to, in essence "serve them". By washing the disciples feet, Jesus provided us with a visual representation of the role of the minister as a servant.

When we focus on the word "authority" rather than "responsibilty" we open the door of to become lords over God's heritage, rather than being servants to those whom we serve. The beauty of American democracy is that it was designed so that the leaders of this country would be the servants of the people. This puts them in the place of responsibilty to serve, rather than giving them the authority to dictate. And thats what the Pharisees were guilty of: dictating, rather than serving. They focused on AUTHORITY, and neglected their repsonsibilty to care for the people. They enforced rules, and, as Jesus said, they neglected the more important things: Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If I were a pastor, I would not want the influence over those I serve that would lead them to do what I say "just because I say it". And I'm certain God would not want me to have that influence either. Because... the truth is...I could be wrong. I could lead people astray, and that would result in my standing at judgement with their blood on my hands. I have the reposnsibilty to speak the truth in love. And, I think we can all agree, there is but one source of truth...the Word of God. God has not given me the authority to add ot take from His Word. Anything I say or do that isn't "authorized" by God's Word is "anathema". No... if I were a pastor (or minister) I would not want to have "authority" over those I serve. But, rather, I would take my responsibilty for and to them very seriously.

2Co 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
2Co 10:9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.
2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
2Co 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.
2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
2Co 10:13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

God has given those in ministry, of which the Pastor is one, authority.

Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Just like the religious leaders of Jesus' day, so to the religious leaders of today who are NOT in the body do NOT speak like Jesus and those whom Jesus has given authority in his church.

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Pro 28:1 The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.

Those in God's ministry have power and authority from God and can speak with boldness; unlike the religious leaders of our world. It is one of the distinguishing marks between those in God's apostolic church and those religious leaders who are not. Incidentally, we don't want the world to creep into the church no matter how much the devil and our fleshly carnal nature may want it that way.

Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

Even Proverbs speaks about the righteous being in authority and Jesus also taught from Proverbs.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

There are those in authority outside of the church and there are those who are in authority inside of the church.

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Incidentally, women are not to be in authority over men, but men are to be in authority over men.

What was Paul the elder's teaching to the younger ministers?

Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Titus was to speak, exhort, and rebuke with all authority and no man was to despise him. He wrote something quite similar to his other son in the faith...

1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
1Ti 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Timothy could command because he had authority and Paul told him to let no man despise his youth. Even though he may have been younger than the leadership before him, because he was called into the ministry, he was in a place of spiritual authority and was to be respected and in submission to.

Timothy had the authority and responsibility to reprove and rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Pro 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Incidentally, Timothy also had the authority and responsibility to rebuke those who sin before all - why? - that others also may fear - respect.

Thank God for those in the ministry who love the saints and have a burden enough for them that when they are in need of correction, they will do it. Who love God so much that they will serve him and obey him and will do what is necessary regardless of what flesh wants or desires. Who will preach the word of God without fear or favor.

I thank God for my Pastor that I know loves me and will help me with whatever I need to stay on the right path.

[theoldpaths]

I believe that when God calls a man into the ministry to Pastor, he anoints them and empowers them and enables them and gives them everything that they need to fulfill their responsibilities.

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

We don't enable ourselves, He enables them.

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

God empowers those in the ministry.

1Co 4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
1Co 4:19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

There must be a power that comes with the demonstration of those in the ministry in the kingdom of God.

Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Again God enables those in the ministry and it is a gift to them whom HE decides.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

No man takes the honor of going into the ministry. It is a gift given by God to those whom HE decides, not man.

I've heard stories of those who thought they were called into the ministry in some type of position, but they end up falling flat on their faces.

Just because someone held a position in a trinitarian, easy-beleivism, water baptism and spirit baptism are not necessary, live any way you want to type of church; does NOT mean that if they do find truth and are saved that they are still in the ministry.

Just because a person preaches with enthusiasm doesn't necessarily mean that they have been annointed and called of God to preach and into 1 of the offices of the 5 fold ministry. And just because someone graduates from a bible college/university does NOT mean that they have been called of God to preach and/or Pastor.

If one is in a position of spiritual authority and are not able to perform their responsibilities to God and to their flock and it has been that way for a long time, then something is wrong. IMHO, there is a difference b/n someone being in the ministry and just going through a temporary trial and someone who for whatever reason is not able to fulfill their God-given responsibilities as a Pastor for an extended period of time.

At some point, one has to KNOW that God has called them into the ministry and placed them in one of the 5 offices. Not just have faith and claim it, but at some point one has to KNOW.

[OneAccord]

And I'm thankful the Lord has given us the Holy Ghost that leads us to live a Christ-like life so the pastor doesn't have to spend an unordinate amount of time correcting us. Sheep follow, goats must be led. If a pastor has to concern himself with constantly correcting, constantly rebuking, then he is either a hireling that careth not for the sheep, or his sheep are nothing more than a herd of goats.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

The following is taken from Raymond Woodward's "Because We Are His - Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness". Same author upon which the following link is based upon about Holiness and Nicolaitanes - http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=17658

"Jesus used the word "hypocrite" ("godless actor") to describe the Pharisees seven times in Matthew 23. And yet, He made a distinction between the righteous principles they taught and the unrighteous actions they committed.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

I find it interesting that because the Pharisees were sitting in a place of authority - Moses' seat -, Jesus told the multitudes and his disciples that whatsoever they bid them to observe, they were to observe and do.

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

There is a big difference, in some instances. The Pharisees taught actual Bible truths. Some pastors teach things not found anywhere in the bible. Jesus did not refer to things taught that were not in the bible when he said to obey the pharisees. What Jesus meant was the Pharisees would not do what they, themselves, taught! THAT is what made them hypocrites.

Let not anyone take those words of Jesus and say that preachers can rightfully demand us to do things the bible does not teach.

[Sister Alvear]

Sadly there are lots of Pharisees but few Christians...

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by mfblume

There is a big difference, in some instances. The Pharisees taught actual Bible truths. Some pastors teach things not found anywhere in the bible. Jesus did not refer to things taught that were not in the bible when he said to obey the pharisees. What Jesus meant was the Pharisees would not do what they, themselves, taught! THAT is what made them hypocrites.

Let not anyone take those words of Jesus and say that preachers can rightfully demand us to do things the bible does not teach.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mfblume

There is a big difference, in some instances. The Pharisees taught actual Bible truths. Some pastors teach things not found anywhere in the bible. Jesus did not refer to things taught that were not in the bible when he said to obey the pharisees. What Jesus meant was the Pharisees would not do what they, themselves, taught! THAT is what made them hypocrites.

Let not anyone take those words of Jesus and say that preachers can rightfully demand us to do things the bible does not teach.

Bro. Blume this is one area in which I would ask you to research. Sure the Pharisees taught some of the Law of Moses but the vast majority was traditions and the Oral law that they had added to the Law of Moses and negated it. The Sadducees where the literalists not the Pharisees concerning the Law of Moses.

[Sister Alvear]

can we say the Talmud?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ascension2020

I think you make some great points. I view the relationship between the pastor and layperson as being two-way. There are responsibilities on both sides. They lay people do have a responsibility to respect their leaders, as the following verses show:



But on the other hand, the leadership has a responsibility to the lay people to lead well, to treat their flock properly, and to teach true doctrine:



I think that John summed it up well when he told us to "test the spirits to see whether they are from God" (1 John 4:1).

I know that we all have different opinions on what submission and respect entail. I think that there's never a "one size fits all" answer that will cover every situation. I do think that in the end though we are all responsible for testing the spirits. If we find that the pastor is not teaching true doctrine or that he has a spirit that is not lining up with what the New Testament says a leader should be, then we must each pray and trust God to help us decide what to do.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't fall into the camp that says "do whatever the pastor says even if you don't agree." On the other hand, I don't fall into the camp that says "no pastor will ever tell me what to do." I try to find a biblical balance between the two extremes. And I do reserve the right to think for myself and make my own decisions. I have a personal relationship with God...my pastor is not the mediator of that relationship.

As to your website. I have to say I disagree strongly with the sweeping generalization. You say in "misinterpreted" scriptures "The UPC say"....That's a logical fallacy unless the UPC has an official doctrinal statement saying what you said. Rather it would be better to say "some OPs" or "Some Apostolics use this verse to mean"