Phariseeism

[theoldpaths]

Have to reply to this message in 2 or 3 separate posts as my reply is to long for just one post; responses in bold...

Originally Posted by mfblume

And your references to SMOOTH SERMONS, etc., are implying that anyone who disagrees with the harsh unbiblical commandments of such new-doctrine-creators are in error, when that is so far from the truth I cannot begin to describe it.

As stated before holiness and applying holiness principles mentioned in the bible to one's life is not a new doctrine.

In Post 98 you said "Jesus did in Matt 18 give his future leadership the ability to make binding decisions that Jesus himself said that he would back up in heaven.". That regarded the binding and loosing of forgiveness, etc. Matt 18 mentions binding and loosing and gives an example of LOOSING someone from prison and BINDING someone else in prison. He is not speaking of creating doctrines.

The context of binding/loosing was with respect to church discipline when a brother trespasses against another brother and it escalates up to a brother becoming like a heathen and a publican unto the whole church.

Now at some point in this process of church discipline, the leadership gets involved and at some point a decision needs to be made when the situation needs to become before the whole church and whether a brother needs to become as a heathen/publican to the whole church. Who is the one that makes that decision? The leadership.

To reinforce that it is the leadership that decides this, Jesus tells his future leadership that whatsoever they shall bind/loose on earth, He would bind/loose in heaven. And to reinforce it even further, in the very next verse he states...

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Notice in verse 18 that Jesus said "again"; Jesus is reinforcing that in the context of leadership bind/loosing, he said that if they would agree on earth as touching ANYTHING they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. Does ANYTHING include include binding/loosing with regards to disfellowshipping? Yes, but ANYTHING also includes ANYTHING other than that as well as long as it doesn't contradict existing scripture.

In Matt 16, Jesus said the following...

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Here Jesus showed that the keys that Peter was going to use to open the door to the kingdom of God was going to be something that he was going to bind/loose on earth, that would be bound/loose in heaven. We understand that the keys, plural, was the plan of salvation that Peter preached in Acts 2:38 to show HOW one could be born again of the water and Spirit to be able to enter into the kingdom of God. Before that time, the door of HOW to be born again of the water and Spirit was locked.

Therefore here we see that bind/loosing had to do with Peter, a leader, declaring something on earth that Jesus would back up in heaven.

Can church leadership only use their authority to make binding decisions regarding disfellowship and that is all? I don't think so.

And in fact we see in Acts 15 a practical example of church leadership coming together to discuss 1 issue and making not just 1 rule about the 1 issue but James creating more than 1 rule, and it being put in writing, and being delivered to be communicated for the whole gentile church to obey. Apparently, the Jewish apostolics were already obeying these things.

Now who gave the apostles and elders the authority to create these new rules for the gentile church? Jesus! Was it because something came up in the church that had never been dealt with before? Yes. Is it possible that there would be other future things that might come up or come flooding in to the church that would require church leadership to have a conference to discuss for the purpose of making a decision? Yes.

Did the issue in Acts 15 have anything to do with forgiveness and church disfellowshipping? Not at all, 1 decision needed to be made about circumcizing the Gentile Christians, but more than 1 rule was created.

[theoldpaths]

2nd reply of 3 (as only 1 reply was too long) to this post follows below with responses in bold...

Originally Posted by mfblume

Once again, this is the TWELVE APOSTLES who were foundation layers, teaching things not to be added to by anyone else later. And that again is far more involved and more doctrinal than enforcing standards that are not in the bible that follow biblical principles.


I find it interesting that Paul and Barnabas were the ones who initiated the need for all of the leadership to come together to discuss to make a decision about the issue so that Paul could give an answer back to the gentile churches to obey. Although Paul and Barnabas were not present in Matt 18, Paul by revelation (Galatians 2:2) recognized the need to go to Jerusalem for the leadership of the church to come together for a decision to be made and to be communicated to the church to be obeyed. Since Paul was not present in Matt 18, Jesus had to give him revelation of the need to go to Jerusalem for the leadership to meet and make a decision.

Gal 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

It is interesting to note that the other apostles recognized Paul's authority as being the apostle to the gentiles. Also we have in Paul's epistle's his writing of his authority as an apostle and not coming a whit behind the very chiefest apostles, etc.

Incidentally, Barnabas was an apostle as well...

Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

So if you want to count apostles, there was the original 12, Judas fell, another was chosen to take his place, then there is Paul and Barnabas - by my count that makes 14 or 13, depending on whether one accepts Judas' successor or not.

Eph 4:11 says that the 5 fold ministry includes apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers; therefore, there are still apostles today.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Its okay to build upon the foundation as long as we take heed how we build upon it. The scriptures show that it is possible to build upon the foundation things that can survive the fire.

[theoldpaths]

3rd reply of 3 (as 1 reply was too long) to this post follows below with responses in bold...

Originally Posted by mfblume

Anyone can quote scriptures that say people ought to obey leadership, but what they make a mistake in is ASSUMING their pet-new-doctrines are what the texts are speaking about, when no such doctrines are in the Bible. They quote passages about clinging to the old paths, and they ERRINGLY ASSUME their pet-new-doctrines are the subject, when such are not the subject whatsoever.

People make up a doctrine and try to enforce it, and then quote "Obey them that have the rule over you." The problem is that ANYONE who sanctions and enforces a NEW doctrine is not qualified as a person under whom we must obey. Those verses and passages APPLY ONLY TO TRUE CALLED LEADERS WHO HAVE NOT ADDED NEW DOCTRINES TO THE WORD OF GOD.

Everyone knows the bible teaches and repeats need to submit and obey and follow leadership. But Paul told us to follow him AS HE FOLLOWED CHRIST. And when so-called "leaders" tell us to follow them in things that the Lord never led anyone into, then they are not following the Lord and we should not follow them.

You also said, "Thank God for Jesus' teaching and a very practical example in Acts of applying that rule. Truly God's word is awesome!

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem."

That is mistaken thinking. You cannot apply what the foundational apostles did in laying down foundational doctrine and think you can make up doctrines not in the bible, as they did in laying the foundation of the church. There are apostles in the church today, but not in the position of the twelve who were doctrinal foundation layers.

Instead of quoting passages that show the apostles laid down doctrines, show me passages that repeat your new doctrines.


Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

Now there are 3 enemies of a child of God - the devil, the world/society, and his own carnal nature/flesh.

When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. In the OT, they wrestled against flesh and blood, but in the NT we wrestle not against flesh and blood. However, when the devil, the world/society, or our carnal natures tries to come in like a flood and have its way in the church, God will not stand for it and will therefore raise up a standard against it. Isn't it interesting that this was a prophesy, prophesying of future events?

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

So when the enemy of world/society creates some new thing that is highly esteemed among men and tries to creep into the body of Christ in a local church, how will God raise up a standard against it?

In the OT the king was the annointed leader of God's people.

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Pro 16:10 A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.

God used the heart of a king to turn it whithersoever he wanted to including making a divine sentence or judgement regarding certain things.

Now God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; if he did it for an annointed leader whom He has called to rule over his people in the OT, then why would he not do it today for an annointed leader whom He has called to rule over his people in a local church?

Pro 24:21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
Pro 24:22 For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?

Pro 20:2 The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: whoso provoketh him to anger sinneth against his own soul.

Before there were kings in Israel, it was told them it was up to the priests and unto the judge to judge the people representative also of the ministry.

Deu 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
Deu 17:9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment:
Deu 17:10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall show thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
Deu 17:11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
Deu 17:12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
Deu 17:13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

All scripture shows that the ministry has the right to make judgements in accordance with biblical principles such as holiness and to be obeyed.

The 5 fold is for the perfecting of the saints. Is holiness something that needs to be perfected in NT saints? Yes it is...

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

With have 3 holiness teachers in the NT - The Spirit of God, the word of God, and the ministry of God.

And when any of the 3 enemies of the church rushes in like a flood, the Lord will raise up a standard against it, if not by himself through tongues and interpretation or "thus saith the Lord...", then through the ministry.

Again holiness is NOT a new doctrine and applying holiness principles to people's lives is not something new.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here’s my take on it.

We have to set the context. First, this was still under the Law, the entire Old Testament system was still in play. Second, Jesus references a custom of the synagogue. In every synagogue there was a special seat where the individual responsible for reading the Torah scrolls would sit. This is called, “Moses’ seat”. Those sitting in this seat read directly from the Scriptures and were only permitted short commentary on what was written, nothing additional. The synagogues had no form of “select clergy” that read the Scrolls, the responsibility of reading the Scripture was rotated among all the men of the congregation.

In this text we see Jesus warning his followers about the Pharisee’s hypocrisy. Then we see that Jesus admonishes them to observe whatsoever the Pharisees bid them to observe when they are sitting in Moses’ seat. Jesus wasn’t telling his followers to observe all the unbiblical standards and traditional customs of the Pharisees because of some privilege of position. Rather Jesus was admonishing his followers to observe whatsoever is read directly from Scripture, even if it was read by a Pharisaical hypocrite.

Just my initial thoughts.

God bless.

You raised some very good thoughts.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Dictatorially requiring an holiness standard not in the bible is cultish, period. Recommend it -- fine. But do not enforce it at the warning of the cost of hellfire.

See my reply to you above regarding the following scripture...

Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by shag

On that point, what about enforcing it to the point of taking you out of the ministries you are in, if you refuse to (concerning unbiblical things)do thinks like "men stay clean shaven if you're going to be in a "church leadership role"", or "ladies wear panty hose or you can't be in the choir?"

If we refuse to do that, are we not "obeying them that have the rule over us?"

And do pastors have the right to take us out of "leadership role" ministries for these reasons?

I would like to hear a few viewpoints here.

3 times in Hebrews 13 does Paul refer to obeying them that have the rule over you.

In Titus, Paul told him...

Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Paul was an older minister teaching the younger minister Titus; he told his other younger son who was a minsters also something very similar...

1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
1Ti 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Commanding also involves authority with aligns with what he told Titus.

2Co 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

"our authority which the Lord hath given us" - plural - not just Paul had authority.

Those in authority have the God-given right to rebuke, reprove, and correct as the bible teaches.

What did Paul have to say about those who were contentious about the ordinances he delivered to be obeyed? Was it the custom of the church to tolerate those IN THE CHURCH who were contentious?

1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

I think not.

Do men rule in authority in God's church?

Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Even proverbs, which Jesus also taught from, teaches about the righteous being in authority...

Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints. Does part of the perfecting of saints have to do with perfecting holiness? Yes it does...

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

God bless.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I think we should try to find a church where we can feel a part of a family...it if doesn´t feel good something might be wrong.

And in a family, if you love your son, then you will chasten him. Many times, Proverbs speaks of chastening a son with the rod. If a father will NOT chasten his son, the he hates him.

As Hebrews states, chastening for the moment is grievous, but afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them that are excercised thereby.

Therefore, just because chastening doesn't "feel good" doesn't mean they should jump ship and tear up their roots and go look for some ground where it always feels and sounds good to the ear.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

This is amazing.
I never thought I'd see a day when a conservative Apostolic would try to make the case that Phariseeism is a good thing!

Never said Phariseeism was a good thing.

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

And in a family, if you love your son, then you will chasten him. Many times, Proverbs speaks of chastening a son with the rod. If a father will NOT chasten his son, the he hates him.

As Hebrews states, chastening for the moment is grievous, but afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them that are excercised thereby.

Therefore, just because chastening doesn't "feel good" doesn't mean they should jump ship and tear up their roots and go look for some ground where it always feels and sounds good to the ear.

I was really not refering to correction I was refering to things that might not be right and being checked by the Holy Ghost.
Maybe I didn´t come out clear. I think most would know I believe in correcting as that is a part of holy life.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I was really not refering to correction I was refering to things that might not be right and being checked by the Holy Ghost.
Maybe I didn´t come out clear. I think most would know I believe in correcting as that is a part of holy life.

Oh, ok - sorry sis