Phariseeism - Page 17

mfblume · #**161** 08-21-2008, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Once again, holiness is not a new man-made doctrine and holiness standards are practical applications of holiness principles taught in the word of God.

Dictatorially requiring an holiness standard not in the bible is cultish, period. Recommend it -- fine. But do not enforce it at the warning of the cost of hellfire.

theoldpaths · #**162** 08-21-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Dictatorially requiring an holiness standard not in the bible is cultish, period. Recommend it -- fine. But do not enforce it at the warning of the cost of hellfire.

Holiness is a bible doctrine and holiness standards are practical applications of holiness principles taught in the word of God. Why are holiness principles in the word of God? So that we can apply them to our lives.

Incidentally, not obeying those that have the rule over you is rebellion.

Dora · #**163** 08-21-2008, 07:39 PM

Does my pastor have "rule" over me, or is he my shepherd? Does he stand over me with a whip or does he provide guidance and care for my soul? Does he "lord" his authority over me or does he shine a light on the path to try to prevent me from stumbling?

Sister Alvear · #**164** 08-21-2008, 07:52 PM

I honor my pastor and love him very much. I mentioned today what a wonderful shepard he is to one of our children.

Dora · #**165** 08-21-2008, 07:53 PM

I honor my pastor, too...And thank God he wasn't a hard task master.

shag · #**166** 08-22-2008, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Dictatorially requiring an holiness standard not in the bible is cultish, period. Recommend it -- fine. But do not enforce it at the warning of the cost of hellfire.

On that point, what about enforcing it to the point of taking you out of the ministries you are in, if you refuse to (concerning unbiblical things)do thinks like "men stay clean shaven if you're going to be in a "church leadership role"", or "ladies wear panty hose or you can't be in the choir?"

If we refuse to do that, are we not "obeying them that have the rule over us?"

And do pastors have the right to take us out of "leadership role" ministries for these reasons?

I would like to hear a few viewpoints here.

Aquila · #**167** 08-22-2008, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

The following is taken from Raymond Woodward's "Because We Are His - Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness". Same author upon which the following link is based upon about Holiness and Nicolaitanes - http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=17658

"Jesus used the word "hypocrite" ("godless actor") to describe the Pharisees seven times in Matthew 23. And yet, He made a distinction between the righteous principles they taught and the unrighteous actions they committed.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

I find it interesting that because the Pharisees were sitting in a place of authority - Moses' seat -, Jesus told the multitudes and his disciples that whatsoever they bid them to observe, they were to observe and do.

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

Here’s my take on it.

We have to set the context. First, this was still under the Law, the entire Old Testament system was still in play. Second, Jesus references a custom of the synagogue. In every synagogue there was a special seat where the individual responsible for reading the Torah scrolls would sit. This is called, “Moses’ seat”. Those sitting in this seat read directly from the Scriptures and were only permitted short commentary on what was written, nothing additional. The synagogues had no form of “select clergy” that read the Scrolls, the responsibility of reading the Scripture was rotated among all the men of the congregation.

In this text we see Jesus warning his followers about the Pharisee’s hypocrisy. Then we see that Jesus admonishes them to observe whatsoever the Pharisees bid them to observe when they are sitting in Moses’ seat. Jesus wasn’t telling his followers to observe all the unbiblical standards and traditional customs of the Pharisees because of some privilege of position. Rather Jesus was admonishing his followers to observe whatsoever is read directly from Scripture, even if it was read by a Pharisaical hypocrite.

Just my initial thoughts.

God bless.

ManOfWord · #**168** 08-22-2008, 08:18 AM

The greatest pastors are those whose chief "weapon" is a towel and not a sword. True pastors serve the sheep who willingly connect with them and do not try to take authority over their lives. Pastors have no business sticking their noses into people's personal business unless they have been given permission by those people through trusting not dictatorial relationships.

This whole business of "obeying them who have the rule over you" has been misinterpreted for centuries at the benefit of those who use it as a club to beat the people who don't trust them into submission. God is not pleased with this type of behavior and never will be.

Remember, the sword is for the devil and the towel is for the people. Mix them up and you have a real mess on your hands. Too many pastors believe that their job is to wield the sword over the sheep to keep them in line. Sheep should run for the hills from ANY leader who has that mentality. Serve the people and they will give you authority. Rule over them, and you will have to use force, fear and any other underhanded scheme you can use to get them to follow you. But know this, one day they will have learned your methods and will turn on you and give you what you gave them! Mark my words! I have seen this happen more than a few times.

mfblume · #**169** 08-22-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shag

On that point, what about enforcing it to the point of taking you out of the ministries you are in, if you refuse to (concerning unbiblical things)do thinks like "men stay clean shaven if you're going to be in a "church leadership role"", or "ladies wear panty hose or you can't be in the choir?"

If we refuse to do that, are we not "obeying them that have the rule over us?"

And do pastors have the right to take us out of "leadership role" ministries for these reasons?

I would like to hear a few viewpoints here.

So long as they do not make it heaven or hell, pastors need wisdom and discretion as to how they will deal with these things for leaders, etc. I see no problem with that. But if some saints want to be used and refuse to abide by some of these standards, then they should not necessarily be considered "rebellious" as has been a favourite title to throw upon such people, and I would recommend such saints to find another church.

mfblume · #**170** 08-22-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Holiness is a bible doctrine and holiness standards are practical applications of holiness principles taught in the word of God. Why are holiness principles in the word of God? So that we can apply them to our lives.

Incidentally, not obeying those that have the rule over you is rebellion.

Without having read your post I just responded to another's and said that saints who do not wish to abide by the standards that are not expressly laid out in scripture should not necessarily be called rebellious. That tag is more-than-necessarily thrown around by dictators. It can correctly apply at times, but I do not think as much as it is thought to adequately apply.

Priests have rule over catholic people, but that does not mean they are what the bible spoke of as being ministers to whom we should live in obedience. Same goes with a lot of self-proclaimed "pastors".