Phariseeism

[Monkeyman]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I don't think you have a point so keep making up counts that doesn't exist.

So what was so wrong or St"oo"pid about my ONE sentence? Also I never said anything about your PASTOR in that POST! What I pointed to and agreed with was the very clear typical stupidity of people in the church of both clergy and saint. Good reason you call yourself monkeyman and a knucklehead!

Listen pal!!!!!!!!! EVERYONE calls me those, hahaha

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

Listen pal!!!!!!!!! EVERYONE calls me those, hahaha

Well at least we have agreement and consensus.... LOL!

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

Great to see my awesome Pastor, Raymond Woodward, getting so much press around here!!!!!

Pretty amazing coming from little ol' Fredericton, NB Canada eeeh???

To check out more from this Cool Pastor, Amazing Church, and Great Looking Music Director, go to: www.capitalcommunity.ca

Funny that The Old Paths quotes from him...we use video!!!!!!!!! Gasp!!! he he he

Awesome thx for the link to his site.

Please find below a link that contains the following complete study on pdf - Because We Are His - Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness, by Senior Pastor Raymond Woodward

http://www.capitalcommunity.ca/pdf/B...0Are%20His.pdf

[theoldpaths]

I just addressed this verse and showed how it is being misused. The mormons and the Catholics can all claim this as their authority for teaching anything they want to. This is why we are Sola Scriptura.

You haven't addressed my point nor answered my questions, so I'll ask them again...

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Do you not agree that in Matt 18, Jesus gave his future church leadership - MEN - the ability to make binding decisions that Jesus said HE would back up? If not, then what is your interpretation of Matt 18:18?

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Reposted from the post you just quoted and read and left out the answer lol

lol....so then I suppose at will we can decide God is really a trinity and Jesus is gonna back that up too? You are seriously mistaken. This is the fallen route Rome took and the Mormons take today. Jesus was not saying "whatever new doctrine you make up Im gonna back it up"...you are missing the entire point of authority. He said to God "your word is truth, sanctify them through you truth"...you got this thing backwards. HE is God and we obey. Not WE are God and He obeys. He is the law giver. HE is the one that pronounces truth and salvation, we OBEY and FOLLOW and BELIEVE Him. Jesus is thus saying the same thing he said in the "commissions" go and preach the gospel IN MY NAME and I will be with you always to the end of the earth.

Whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven...it's because they were preaching the New Covenant to the lost world with HIS authority....wow...I didn't really know you guys believed you can just make up any doctrine you want and God will back it up.

Ummm I did respond to this in #109.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

OLD PATHS ask ANY Messianic Jew about TRADITIONS and the ORAL LAW! I am probably more strict in the LAW and teaching than most here doesn't it make me better? NO! My brother you have thrown and rope around your neck as if you are not careful you will negate the Word of God by adding to which is just as bad as taking away and FALL INTO the pit and you will not have EXCEEDED the righteousness of the Pharisees! I believe in holiness standards and anyone that knows we will testify to that! I also believe GOD has called us to GREATER holiness than that which is taught in the Mosaic Covenant as now he is in our hearts trying to lead us into ALL truth! Thus our actions and ways should be in greater measure HOLY as HE is HOLY! You must be careful or you will make mockery of the HS that is in some and is teaching them!

Please explain to me how I have thrown a noose around my neck?

I am not adding to the word of God, but rather I am standing up for my Pastor's right to create holiness standards for my church, and standing up for my submission to my Pastor and to the holiness standards that he teaches. I am willingly obeying the one that has the rule over me in obedience to his word and I give God all of the praise and glory for enabling me to be obedient to His word. I thank God for his gift to me, my Pastor.

Again let me state, what others choose to believe is up to them and I respect their right to believe what they want to believe. I am simply stating what I believe and using scripture to back that up.

As far as I'm concerned, this has been a mature discussion about what the bible teaches. Others don't have to participate if they don't want to or are not able to backing up what they believe with scripture.

Others are free to join a church where the Pastor doesn't have ANY holiness standards, but let's people work out their own salvation with fear and trembling if they want to. I have been there, was not born again there and I'm glad I'm not there anymore but am back to where I was born again with a good relationship with my Pastor and my brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Thank you for your concern.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Please explain to me how I have thrown a noose around my neck?

I am not adding to the word of God, but rather I am standing up for my Pastor's right to create holiness standards for my church, and standing up for my submission to my Pastor and to the holiness standards that he teaches. I am willingly obeying the one that has the rule over me in obedience to his word and I give God all of the praise and glory for enabling me to be obedient to His word. I thank God for his gift to me, my Pastor.

Again let me state, what others choose to believe is up to them and I respect their right to believe what they want to believe. I am simply stating what I believe and using scripture to back that up.

As far as I'm concerned, this has been a mature discussion about what the bible teaches. Others don't have to participate if they don't want to or are not able to backing up what they believe with scripture.

Others are free to join a church where the Pastor doesn't have ANY holiness standards, but let's people work out their own salvation with fear and trembling if they want to. I have been there, was not born again there and I'm glad I'm not there anymore but am back to where I was born again with a good relationship with my Pastor and my brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Thank you for your concern.

Create holiness standards??? What a bunch of garbage. You don't create holiness.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by stasis

We should review some facts about the Pharisees in Christ's time (and Jewish custom), since you've connected Christ's statement (Matt 23:3) to obedience to pastors.

-----------------------------------
The pharisees sat in Moses' seat, and corrupted themselves in frowardly mixing Mosaic Law with customs of men. In addition to this corruption, they failed to fulfill the physical Mosaic Law... but also failed to fulfill their own superfluous ordinances, let alone fulfilling the 'very image' or spiritual truth of the Law! No wonder they are called vipers. Basically everything they do seems tainted with deadly poison.

Regarding superfluous ordinances, we can observe the process involved in a gentile gaining citizenship, becoming a jew, as set forth by the Pharisees. In addition to the God-commanded requirement of circumcision (valid), there were also added the customary offering of turtledoves and the proselyte baptism (which was originally intended for priestly purification prior to temple duties, or for women post-menstrul), which are not mentioned in Torah as requirements for citizenship or conversion.

But take a look at Mat 3:13-17, Mat 23:3 then Col 2:14-17

The key to understanding how these and similar scriptures correlate, rests in the Jewish customs attached to securing or nullifying a contract.

Two or three witnesses were required to create a contract. The contracting parties would literally act-out the contract, like a skit. In the eyes of the witnesses and judge, this secured the contract. To nullify a contract, the contracted parties would gather among the witnesses and agree publicly regarding nullification. The physical contract would then be placed against a pole and a certain spike be driven through it, marking it nullified (much like a notary seal today).

The nailing of the handwriting of ordinances to the cross (Col 2:14-17)represents the nullifying of the requirement of the fulfillment of ordinances, and customs of men. Paul's understanding and preaching of this led to controversy between the Christian Jews and the Christian Gentiles concerning holy days, circumcision, legal food, etc.
----------------------------------------------

So, with fulfillment of the New Testament, a New Contract enacted and sealed with Christ's blood (which we are likewise bound to, by bearing our cross, participating in the enactment and following him as he wills it), and simultaenous nullification of handwriting of ordinances, we are set free from the laws of men, being made subject to Christ Jesus, who alone is mediator between God and men.

Mat 23:7-13
Summed up: We are to consider no man Master or Father, but Christ.

Does this mean we reject all instruction given by men? Heavens NO!

I Cor 11:1
We are to follow our sub-shepherds (Christ being the primary shepherd), even as they are followers of Christ. Notice... As long as they follow Christ, we follow them. So in a sense, we're merely all just following Christ, which goes back to Christ's commandment that we call no man Master.

If a man is following Christ, and he gives you instruction, YOU FOLLOW IT.

If a man is rebellious, froward, and deceiving himself, you correct him as you are a follower of Christ. This is the commandment of God.

If a child-molesting priest or pastor commands that you drop your children off at his/her home so he can give them a 'special blessing', and says it is God's commandment, do you do this thing? NO!

Christ set us free from the tyranny of men, binding us to him, who all men answer to.


NOW... the problem today is that, as I believe, we are living in a DARK AGE regarding scriptural understanding. You can have a preacher teaching something false, and a congregation member who believes something else (which is also false) contradicting one another, and both are blind in the midst of their conflict.

The apostasy of today illustrates the importance of STUDYING TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED, that we might be able to discern truth as well as instruct with longsuffering and patience toward the building of the house of God. Too often I see intelligent, capable congregants studying too little, or without willingness or strength to bear their cross by speaking up when they know something is wrong (which is pure agape), or Pastors themselves who don't study enough and/or discourage their congregants from a deeper understanding of the word of God in fear that this may lead to questions being raised, and the pastor's embarassment. Most of the time, it's all about 'keeping the calm and the order... don't rock the boat', and this is an easy approach.

This is a common line-of-thinking throughout the history of religion and especially Christianity:
A SIMPLE flock is easier to keep and manage, when you yourself do not study enough in the Word. Also, smooth words and fair speeches about Jesus loving everybody work well for growing and maintaining crowds. Questions are to be avoided or answered ambiguously, especially in the company of others, as these may lead to more questions, and an undoing of an order which is physically comforting and profitable to certain persons.

The rules are similar in both fortune-telling and being a sales-person.

I'm NOT saying all pastors are this way... but I'm beginning to fear it's the majority.

Very good post.

I also agree that if we have a Pastor in truth, then we should submit ourselves to him and obey him.

Another interpretation of Col 2:13-17 follows which comes from Clarke's Commentary; not that Clarke is any type of authority as I do not know whether he had obeyed the apostolic salvation or not; but anyways...

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

By the hand-writing of ordinances the apostle most evidently means the ceremonial law: this was against them, for they were bound to fulfill it; and it was contrary to them, as condemning them for their neglect and transgression of it. This law God himself has blotted out.

Notice that verse 13 talks about having "forgiven" them all of their trespasses. They were indeed guilty of perhaps not keeping all of the ceremonial law, but Christ removed the requirement to continue to fulfill the ceremonial law; and as they were now saved, those sins were washed away, and going forward there is no more need to keep the ceremonial law. They were no longer bound to keep it.

Verse 16 seems to confirm this - "therefore", meaning because they were forgiven for really being guilty, but the requirement was nailed to the cross, let no man JUDGE you in such ceremonial law requirements as the ones he listed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The ceremonial law was done away with.

Going forward, however, I still stand that Matt 18:18 shows that Jesus gave his future church leadership the ability to make binding decisions that Jesus said he would back up and essentially expect to be obeyed.

As long as my pastor is in the truth and preaching and teaching the truth and has not backed down from it or gone off on a tangent, I have a God-given responsibility to respect him, to love him, and to obey him. If my Pastor ever goes off on a tangent away from truth, then I will agree that he no longer has authority over me.

Obey the Catholics? Absolutely not! They are in false doctrine and were not the original church but rather departed from the faith and did their own thing. Continuing in the apostle's doctrine? You bet.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Create holiness standards??? What a bunch of garbage. You don't create holiness.

Amen! I am in total agreement that man does NOT create holiness.

[TRFrance]

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(Mark 7:7)

What part of this do people find difficult to understand?