Saddened by NY Grand Jury Decision To NOT Indict

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by n david

Prax, I read this from day 1. Garner was not breaking the law when this cop assaulted him, causing his death. Check it out. There was NO crime being committed by Garner. He was simply a bystander when a fight broke out and even helped to break it up. His prior record caused these cops to harass him. He wasn't being threatening or resisting anything.

In fact, had Garner not been killed, he likely would have sued the cops for a civil rights violation - and won. Those cops had no business trying to arrest him.

Look...People with records get more scrutiny. He has a history of selling "Loosies" and is standing out in front of a store. That's the usual place to sell stuff, standing there.

If you read the encounter he is agitated from the beginning. Me? I'd just calmly talk to them, let them ask their questions or whatever.

And the cop who killed him has a record of his own for violating civil rights and wrongful arrests.

Once again that cop did not kill him. The contributing factors include being placed on his stomach and having someone stick their knee on his back and press down. That is VERY common for a take down arrest when someone resists.

Also the guy everyone is blaming as the sole person who did it, he was not the person who confronted the man

"On July 17, 2014, at 4:45 p.m., Eric Garner was approached by a plainclothes police officer, Justin Damico, in front of a beauty supply store at 202 Bay Street in the Tompkinsville neighborhood in Staten Island"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner
Wrong guy.

Read what the man was saying to them

"After telling the police officers, "Get away [garbled] for what? Every time you see me, you want to mess with me. I'm tired of it. It stops today. Why would you...? Everyone standing here will tell you I didn't do nothing. I did not sell nothing. Because everytime you see me, you want to harass me. You want to stop me [garbled] Selling cigarettes. I'm minding my business, officer, I'm minding my business. Please just leave me alone. I told you the last time, please just leave me alone."

Again he has a record for doing just this.

This is NOT Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin. If you can't figure out the difference, sorry. This guy was by all reports minding his own business when the cops singled him out for his prior record.

Please show me "All reports"...I don't see "by all reports".

And for what....non-taxed cigarettes?!

You realize the Police don't make laws OR police Policy...right?

I take my civil rights seriously, and when this happens, yes, I get angry. But there are plenty of legal minds who believe the same as I do.

The man was combative from the beginning.

And yes, race does play a factor. NYC's stop and frisk policy, the police beating of the black immigrant. NYPD has a nasty history of racial abuse. I guarantee you, had Garner been white, he would still be alive.

The Police don't set policies again. Why make this one cop the scapegoat for those that set these policies?

Why do you suppose the black female sup that was present did not do anything about it? Is she a racist?

Why is one cop being singled out and the rest given immunity? Something is not right. The autopsy does not pin the death solely on the "chokehold" and so please explain why he is the killer and the other cops are not?

Please make sense of that. There was no damage to his windpipe. He did not suffocate to death

He went into Cardiac arrest. that could have happened to anyone with a bad heart

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by n david

Prax, I read this from day 1. Garner was not breaking the law when this cop assaulted him, causing his death. Check it out. There was NO crime being committed by Garner. He was simply a bystander when a fight broke out and even helped to break it up. His prior record caused these cops to harass him. He wasn't being threatening or resisting anything.

In fact, had Garner not been killed, he likely would have sued the cops for a civil rights violation - and won. Those cops had no business trying to arrest him.

And the cop who killed him has a record of his own for violating civil rights and wrongful arrests.

This is NOT Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin. If you can't figure out the difference, sorry. This guy was by all reports minding his own business when the cops singled him out for his prior record.

And for what....non-taxed cigarettes?!

I take my civil rights seriously, and when this happens, yes, I get angry. But there are plenty of legal minds who believe the same as I do.

And yes, race does play a factor. NYC's stop and frisk policy, the police beating of the black immigrant. NYPD has a nasty history of racial abuse. I guarantee you, had Garner been white, he would still be alive.

The government and media are not interested in northern racism. It's only noteworthy if it happens in the South.

[jfrog]

Surprisingly I'm with Prax on this one.

Fact 1: Cops believed man was selling loose cigs
Fact 2: Cops were attempting to arrest the man for selling loose cigs
Fact 3: The submission hold that the officer placed Garner in primarily restricted his blood flow and not his airflow.
Fact 4: Some people define a choke hold as only a hold that restricts the airflow. Others call a choke hold any hold that restricts the air flow or blood flow.


My opinion: Cops should be allowed to use the necessary amount of force that is needed to apprehend a lawbreaker while placing themselves at minimal risk for harm. In other words a quick take down followed by a dogpile is likely the safest course of action for the cops when a man is being beligerent and saying things like "this ends here" and "don't touch me" and waving his arms around while saying those things. Taking quick sudden action before the situation can escalate any further is the right thing to do.

How else would any of you rather the police behave?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Surprisingly I'm with Prax on this one.

Fact 1: Cops believed man was selling loose cigs
Fact 2: Cops were attempting to arrest the man for selling loose cigs
Fact 3: The submission hold that the officer placed Garner in primarily restricted his blood flow and not his airflow.
Fact 4: Some people define a choke hold as only a hold that restricts the airflow. Others call a choke hold any hold that restricts the air flow or blood flow.


My opinion: Cops should be allowed to use the necessary amount of force that is needed to apprehend a lawbreaker while placing themselves at minimal risk for harm. In other words a quick take down followed by a dogpile is likely the safest course of action for the cops when a man is being beligerent and saying things like "this ends here" and "don't touch me" and waving his arms around while saying those things. Taking quick sudden action before the situation can escalate any further is the right thing to do.

How else would any of you rather the police behave?

Thats what I keep asking. How ELSE do the Police subdue someone who is resisting and combative?

I just saw a video of some driver being a butthead to a cop for being pulled over for a broken/missing front plate

He asked the man several times if he would sign the ticket and he just gave him an attitude. Guess what? They dragged his butt out of the car and slammed him against the side and arrested him.

The only time it's calm is when you do exactly what they ask. In this case the cop finally had enough and determined the man refused to sign and so he asked him to step out. The man would not...why do people fight the police then say they are afraid? Huh?

BTW the driver was white

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Surprisingly I'm with Prax on this one.

Fact 1: Cops believed man was selling loose cigs
Fact 2: Cops were attempting to arrest the man for selling loose cigs
Fact 3: The submission hold that the officer placed Garner in primarily restricted his blood flow and not his airflow.
Fact 4: Some people define a choke hold as only a hold that restricts the airflow. Others call a choke hold any hold that restricts the air flow or blood flow.


My opinion: Cops should be allowed to use the necessary amount of force that is needed to apprehend a lawbreaker while placing themselves at minimal risk for harm. In other words a quick take down followed by a dogpile is likely the safest course of action for the cops when a man is being beligerent and saying things like "this ends here" and "don't touch me" and waving his arms around while saying those things. Taking quick sudden action before the situation can escalate any further is the right thing to do.

How else would any of you rather the police behave?

Great post! Very concise!

Have we agreed on anything in the past? Today might be the first time.

[Praxeas]

Repeating. It was a legal hold, not an illegal chokehold. The man died from cardiac arrest not asphyxia

The Coroners report said it was merely a contributing factor along with his poor health and being on his chest with someone compressing down on his back

There was a black supervisor on the scene that could have stopped it but herself said she did not thing the man was in danger

The cop that used the head hold was NOT the cop that approached the man

So WHY was only that cop the one that was to be indicted or not? Why is he the scape goat?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Great post! Very concise!

Have we agreed on anything in the past? Today might be the first time.

Thanks PO. I think this is the first and only time. It can't be good for your conservative reputation to agree with me. Might wanna recant your opinion? Jk

[Jito463]

You know, all this reminds me of an incident on my overnight job. I work at a convenience store, and while I'm disgusted by tobacco and alcohol, I'm forced to sell it as part of my job. As such, if I'm forced to do so, I follow the law to the letter on IDs (which is, everyone looking under 30 must show ID every time). I've even carded people 10 years older than me, and I'm nearly 40 myself, just because I wasn't sure. I get some irate people because of it, but I don't care.

One night, while working at another store than my usual one, some guy came in wanting to buy but didn't have his ID. After refusing sale, he was irate but left to get his ID. When he came back, and I explained it was the law, his response was "f*** the law". He was a black man. This is the kind of attitude cops often have to deal with. Am I saying all blacks are like this? Absolutely not. It's the punks. It just seems there's a lot of young blacks who are punks who have no respect for the law.

It's easy to try and make things racial, and sometimes it is, but many times it's just lack of respect for the law and the officers who enforce it. Many times it's held up as a statistic that more blacks are arrested than whites, but how often is it because of attitudes like I mentioned above? It's because they're punks and thugs.

We, as a nation, need to stop dividing ourselves. I don't care if you're black, white, yellow, red, green, purple, orange or blue (well, maybe blue people, they're just wrong ). It makes no difference to me. If you show respect to me, I'll show respect back to you. It's the same when dealing with cops. There are bad cops out there, and they should be weeded out and dealt with; but by and large most officers are just doing their job. And if the media would just stop trying to divide us with labels (fat chance, I know), that would go a long way towards helping to reduce the divide.

[n david]

Move on, nothing to see here. Choking the neck of someone and kneeling on their back has no effect on breathing or the heart, right.

And yeah, one black supervisor cop was there and didn't say anything surrounded by several white cops, so that means she approved of what happened, right?

Believe that, and I have ocean view property here in Phoenix for sale.

We'll be disagreeing on this. You can't separate Garner from Brown and can't admit a cop acted stupidly and because of that, a man and father of 6 kids is dead.

#Icantbreathe

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by n david

Move on, nothing to see here. Choking the neck of someone and kneeling on their back has no effect on breathing or the heart, right.

And yeah, one black supervisor cop was there and didn't say anything surrounded by several white cops, so that means she approved of what happened, right?

Believe that, and I have ocean view property here in Phoenix for sale.

We'll be disagreeing on this. You can't separate Garner from Brown and can't admit a cop acted stupidly and because of that, a man and father of 6 kids is dead.

#Icantbreathe

How should the cops have arrested the man? What would have been acceptable force?