Saddened by NY Grand Jury Decision To NOT Indict

[n david]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Fyi, I felt it was a flip flop too. But with prax denying that, I'm sure I must have misread some of the past posts he made on that topic.

I wish he'd put aside his issue to actually answer the question. After all the posts defending the officer and his actions, why does he believe the officer was negligent? It's not logical. If the cop was doing what he was trained to do, and if he did everything properly within department guidelines, then why is he negligent? It doesn't make sense.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

I'm not all balled up, I am letting you know that your accusations are false and that you have seriously offended me.

I am letting you know that you have offended me.

Take a number. I think Ted Cruz must have spurned her political advances and she's just a bitter woman right now. Proverbs 25:24. Just saying.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

You're not worth it.

Fine. That's your opinion.

The bottom line is that if you are being choked out, you cannot speak as much to clearly say, "I can't breathe". So, don't tell me this police officer was choking Garner.

The job of the police force is to carry out legislative will. Overcriminalization lies at the feet of legislators, not the police. We need to study, more closely and wisely, what crimes we legislate that could eventually have a gun pointed at a person.

I don't believe all policemen are good, but I also don't believe the largest percentage of them are bad. Therefore, the legal system does owe some loyalty to it's own employees that are hired, with guns, to go out and protect the public. And it also owes some degree of loyalty to a person, not acting on their own initiative, but by the orders that the legal system gives them.

Remember that the shop owners called wanting Garner removed from in front of their stores. It was affecting their business operations. Apparently, they were familiar with him and his movements, as were the police.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

I'm not all balled up, I am letting you know that your accusations are false and that you have seriously offended me.

I am letting you know that you have offended me.

Your statements about me wanting to kill Americans and your statements or implications that I am racist are LIES.

And say whatever else you want to say about me Pressing On, just remember me when I am confronted with doing somebody wrong, I know how to apologize.

This black guy who attended UPCI churches for over 12 years and now an A/G church for 2 or 3 years is not a racist.

And of course, I don't want to kill Americans.

Well, you were pretty emphatic about pulling that trigger on Bundy and his people who were not going to fire first. I'm always going to go on the defense when "military" will say they could turn on American citizens.

Aside from that issue, please accept my apology for offending you. Even though we have disagreed on occasion, I have never had any ill feelings or thoughts toward you at any time. I know our (meaning AFF members) postings can and do convey harsh feelings at times, but I believe we've been around long enough to know that we do argue and debate about subjects without holding hard feelings against another poster. At least that is how I feel about it.

David and I have had heated arguments and been actually angry, but I have never disliked him at any time.

So, please know that I like you, glad you post here on AFF, wish you no harm and hold no ill feelings toward you in the least. I'm sorry that I made you upset or even angry at me.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

The bottom line is that if you are being choked out, you cannot speak as much to clearly say, "I can't breathe". So, don't tell me this police officer was choking Garner.

It is possible, depending on the degree, just ask any medical professional. Great post from reddit gives the reasons why it's possible.

The Pernicious Myth Of "If You Can Speak You Can Breathe"

When you hear someone say "If you can speak you can breathe" know that they are full of *.

1. The lungs have what are called "Volumes" and "Capacities". The link describes all of them. For our purposes, you need to understand these two phrases: Functional Reserve Capacity (the amount of air left in the lungs after a normal exhalation) and Expiratory Reserve Volume (the amount of air you can still force out of your lungs after a normal exhalation).

2. When you take a normal breath you breathe in and out you are breathing about 500ml of air. After breathing out, you are left with ~2400ml of air inside your lungs, this is the Functional Reserve Capacity. If you try to force out as much air as possible, you can still force out ~1200ml more air. This is the Expiratory Reserve Volume. This is air you are able to speak with even if you cannot take a normal breath. Important Note: Notice that the Expiratory Reserve Volume is more than twice the size of a normal breath. That is a lot of air you are able to force out, and a lot of speaking you can do even if you can't breathe.

3. The lungs work on negative pressure. So, your lungs, when you breathe in, are at a lower pressure than the outside air. This draws the air into them. This is caused by your diaphragm and intercostal muscles. Your lungs are very elastic, and will move back to their normal size during exhalation. This is where the problem begins for officers. If you are kneeling on a suspect, or you have them handcuffed on the ground so that they are on their chest, there is a strong possibility that you can cut off their ability to breathe. Once the lungs begin to exhale, they collapse, but if you they are being pressed down on by body weight, they may not be able to re-expand. They then continue to collapse, forcing out the Functional Reserve Capacity of air, but not drawing in a new breath. So, your suspect may be pleading for breath, they may actually be incapable of drawing one in, and the reason is you. If someone is saying they cannot breathe, you need to believe them, because you might be killing them. Furthermore, during any kind of physical altercation, that person may be breathing deeply and rapidly, making their lungs collapse faster when you are kneeling on them or holding them on the ground.

4. Asthma. Some of you may be saying "Well, the guy who died had asthma, that wasn't the officer's fault or the jail's fault." Oh yes it was. If someone is telling you they have asthma and they can't breathe, you need to believe them. Asthma is a constriction of the airways, no different than being strangled. They will still be able to speak and they will still be dying slowly. It took 30 minutes for that man to die, and that was entirely preventable.

So why are you suffocating if so much air is still in your lungs? Part of the problem is that the air left over in the lungs after exhalation is not oxygenated, so your lungs are full of CO2 gas. This air is useless to your blood, so even though your bronchioles are full of air, you are still suffocating to death.

Obesity: Not Everyone Has The Same Lung Capacity: There are factors that can make a person have a smaller lung capacity than someone else. These factors include:
1. Being obese
2. Being a female
3. Living at low altitudes
4. Being a smoker
This is important because not only does an obese person have smaller lung capacity, they also can have their lungs fail to expand due to their own body weight if they are lying on the ground facedown. An obese person is at extreme risk of suffocation in any instance where their airways are being blocked or where they are cuffed and on the ground. Don't * around if they say they can't breathe, they're probably not lying.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

It is possible, just ask any medical professional. Great post from reddit gives the reasons why it's possible.

The Pernicious Myth Of "If You Can Speak You Can Breathe"

When you hear someone say "If you can speak you can breathe" know that they are full of *.

1. The lungs have what are called "Volumes" and "Capacities". The link describes all of them. For our purposes, you need to understand these two phrases: Functional Reserve Capacity (the amount of air left in the lungs after a normal exhalation) and Expiratory Reserve Volume (the amount of air you can still force out of your lungs after a normal exhalation).

2. When you take a normal breath you breathe in and out you are breathing about 500ml of air. After breathing out, you are left with ~2400ml of air inside your lungs, this is the Functional Reserve Capacity. If you try to force out as much air as possible, you can still force out ~1200ml more air. This is the Expiratory Reserve Volume. This is air you are able to speak with even if you cannot take a normal breath. Important Note: Notice that the Expiratory Reserve Volume is more than twice the size of a normal breath. That is a lot of air you are able to force out, and a lot of speaking you can do even if you can't breathe.

3. The lungs work on negative pressure. So, your lungs, when you breathe in, are at a lower pressure than the outside air. This draws the air into them. This is caused by your diaphragm and intercostal muscles. Your lungs are very elastic, and will move back to their normal size during exhalation. This is where the problem begins for officers. If you are kneeling on a suspect, or you have them handcuffed on the ground so that they are on their chest, there is a strong possibility that you can cut off their ability to breathe. Once the lungs begin to exhale, they collapse, but if you they are being pressed down on by body weight, they may not be able to re-expand. They then continue to collapse, forcing out the Functional Reserve Capacity of air, but not drawing in a new breath. So, your suspect may be pleading for breath, they may actually be incapable of drawing one in, and the reason is you. If someone is saying they cannot breathe, you need to believe them, because you might be killing them. Furthermore, during any kind of physical altercation, that person may be breathing deeply and rapidly, making their lungs collapse faster when you are kneeling on them or holding them on the ground.

4. Asthma. Some of you may be saying "Well, the guy who died had asthma, that wasn't the officer's fault or the jail's fault." Oh yes it was. If someone is telling you they have asthma and they can't breathe, you need to believe them. Asthma is a constriction of the airways, no different than being strangled. They will still be able to speak and they will still be dying slowly. It took 30 minutes for that man to die, and that was entirely preventable.

So why are you suffocating if so much air is still in your lungs? Part of the problem is that the air left over in the lungs after exhalation is not oxygenated, so your lungs are full of CO2 gas. This air is useless to your blood, so even though your bronchioles are full of air, you are still suffocating to death.

Obesity: Not Everyone Has The Same Lung Capacity: There are factors that can make a person have a smaller lung capacity than someone else. These factors include:
1. Being obese
2. Being a female
3. Living at low altitudes
4. Being a smoker
This is important because not only does an obese person have smaller lung capacity, they also can have their lungs fail to expand due to their own body weight if they are lying on the ground facedown. An obese person is at extreme risk of suffocation in any instance where their airways are being blocked or where they are cuffed and on the ground. Don't * around if they say they can't breathe, they're probably not lying.

And you think the police are not aware of this in their training? Also, it speaks to Prax's point - the police were not aware of Garner's health history of asthma, etc.

Also, it is ridiculous to think that when the police are subduing a character that they are going to release tension during a take down. How many lying criminals do they meet everyday? Lots.

You are also trying to indicate that the police were trying to intentionally strangle Garner. The GJ, after reviewing the evidence, didn't think he was negligent. IOW, whatever he did during this altercation wasn't seen as vengeance of a police officer.

All day long you can say that the GJ only got to see the side of the Prosecutor, but the GJ also viewed the video. And if they didn't see excessive use of force, that's the end of the story, David.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Well, you were pretty emphatic about pulling that trigger on Bundy and his people who were not going to fire first. I'm always going to go on the defense when "military" will say they could turn on American citizens.

The way I remember it, your assertion that I would kill Americans and even be glad to do it came from a direct question you asked about if there would ever be a time when I would fire on Americans and I didn't answer the question to your liking.

I didn't want to fire on anybody "first" or anything like that. When you have the time and the interest, re-visit that thread and see our exchanges.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Aside from that issue, please accept my apology for offending you. Even though we have disagreed on occasion, I have never had any ill feelings or thoughts toward you at any time. I know our (meaning AFF members) postings can and do convey harsh feelings at times, but I believe we've been around long enough to know that we do argue and debate about subjects without holding hard feelings against another poster. At least that is how I feel about it.

David and I have had heated arguments and been actually angry, but I have never disliked him at any time.

So, please know that I like you, glad you post here on AFF, wish you no harm and hold no ill feelings toward you in the least. I'm sorry that I made you upset or even angry at me.

You did make me angry, but I accept your apology.



My desire to post under my real name was based on personal accountability, but I may need to revist this decision.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by n david

Take a number. I think Ted Cruz must have spurned her political advances and she's just a bitter woman right now. Proverbs 25:24. Just saying.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

You did make me angry, but I accept your apology.



My desire to post under my real name was based on personal accountability, but I may need to revist this decision.

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Ummm, this kind of undid the accepting of my apology and the

Just sayin'...