My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

[Esaias]

I thought the apostles were "true Jews" ...?

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Lafon - I am truly curious, since I have never heard this theology before.
When did the moment happen when "true" Jews could not be saved?
Was it when Peter went and preached to Cornelius, thereby opening the door to the Gentiles?
Also, what will happen to all of the "true" Jews who died, never having any hope of salvation? Will they be judged under the old covenant?

As noted in Jesus' words of Luke 19:41-44, the judgment of gross spiritual blindness was imposed upon that generation to which it was delivered, and it has effected every generation of Jew since that time until the present day!

Apparently there were those Jews who were living at that time who were not effected (seeing at any given moment there are several generations living at the same time), since we do find that there were large numbers of Jews that were converted to Christianity during the 1st Century. However, with the passing (that is, the deaths) of that generation of Jews upon whom the judgment was imposed, as well as all of the other generations living at that time, then none of their descendants could be saved!

Since the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus, and the institution of God's "New" Covenant with mankind, then ALL who have died since that time will be judged according to the provisionss of this "New" Covenant, for the Old Covenant was done away with at the time the "New" Covenant became effective!

All that is required for one to attain an understnding of these things is to do a careful study of the scriptural record of God's relationship with the Jewish people. It cannot be acheived by a mere cursory reading, but demands much study, fasting, prayer, and a complete reliance upon the Spirit of truth as the Guide and Counselor. Such knowledge cannot be acquired by reliance upon one's flawed carnal mind.

There will come to pass a moment in the future, when the "times" of God's "visit" to the Gentiles has been completed (and that will occur perhaps even sooner than one could imagine), that God will turn His attention again to His chosen people of Israel, and fulfill that covenant He made with the patriarchs which stipulated that they and their descendants would be His chosen people for ever. Because God's promises are sure, and He cannot lie, then we are also told that "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Compare Romans 11:25-29).

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lafon

As noted in Jesus' words of Luke 19:41-44, the judgment of gross spiritual blindness was imposed upon that generation to which it was delivered, and it has effected every generation of Jew since that time until the present day!

Apparently there were those Jews who were living at that time who were not effected (seeing at any given moment there are several generations living at the same time), since we do find that there were large numbers of Jews that were converted to Christianity during the 1st Century. However, with the passing (that is, the deaths) of that generation of Jews upon whom the judgment was imposed, as well as all of the other generations living at that time, then none of their descendants could be saved!
.

How can that be true if we read this?

Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.



Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

All of these verses require that GENERATION only means people alive at that given time.

Jesus distinguished the GENERATION in his day from their forebears.

Matthew 23:30-32 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. (31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. (32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Matthew 23:35-36 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

When Jesus said their fathers killed the prophets, He was talking about Israelites. And when He said the people alive in his day filled the cup of their ancestors/fathers, then said they would be guilty of all blood shed since Abel's death, he distinguished their day from their fathers' days, and said THIS GENERATION. The ONLY way that makes any sense is for GENERATION to mean the people alive in one period of time. Otherwise the entire Hebrew people including their fathers were guilty of all the blood shed for millennia, and Jesus could not say the people in his day filled the cup. He'd have to say the nation since it's beginning filled the cup. But no, the people in His day filled the cup and crossed the line in Jesus' day. So when Jesus said THIS GENERATION, He meant ONLY the people alive in His day.

So THIS GENERATION is contrasted from THEIR FATHERS. That could not be the case if it was all Israel of all time. He could not use the term THIS GENERATION in contrast to their fathers if generation meant nation of all time.

This means the blindness on Israel was ONE GENERATION alone in the first century.

That's also why Matt 12 says THAT GENERATION was like a demon possessed man delivered only to see seven worse than the first devil return with the first devil and make the man worse than before deliverance.

[KeptByTheWord]

Lafon: Perhaps you need to call and talk to this man, Dr. Michael Brown, a JEW, who is filled with the SPIRIT and tell him that he is not saved, nor can be saved.

http://askdrbrown.org/about/personal-testimony/

I know there are many more Jews filled with the spirit, but we'll start with him.

In fact, Dr. Brown has a radio station, and you could call in and explain to him that he simply can't be saved because of the understanding you've presented.

[KeptByTheWord]

And one more question Lafon -- how do you determine exactly if someone is a pure Jew and therefore cannot attain salvation? You say the lineage can't be determined through the mother, but through the father, but we know throughout history in the OT that if a man died and left no offspring, his wife could remarry, and those offspring would be considered his.

In Numbers 27:7 God gave a unique gift to Israelites: bloodline passed to daughters if no male heirs were born. In Numbers 36:4 when this is questioned, Moses says the inheritance belongs to the women as long as they marry within their own tribe. Later, in 1 Chronicles 2:21-23; 7:14 we see Jair, called "Jair son of Manasseh" but is actually "son of Manasseh's granddaughter"[3] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism)

[mfblume]

Paul wrote in his day that the church was for Jew and Gentile together in one body. There's no way all Jews are out until our future if Paul said that. The middle wall of partition is GONE, and not even God can build up the thing he destroyed and make himself a transgressor.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Galatians 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

The wall is down, and the only ones blinded according to the prophets and apostles were the single generation in the first century between the cross and the destruction of Jerusalem, and no Jew before or since.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Paul wrote in his day that the church was for Jew and Gentile together in one body. There's no way all Jews are out until our future if Paul said that. The middle wall of partition is GONE, and not even God can build up the thing he destroyed and make himself a transgressor.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Galatians 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

The wall is down, and the only ones blinded according to the prophets and apostles were the single generation in the first century between the cross and the destruction of Jerusalem, and no Jew before or since.

Galatians 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus, and if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Galatians 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus, and if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."

Right. He could not say that if Jews cannot be saved now and they're all blinded. And again, Jewishness is not restricted to genealogy by any means.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Galatians 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus, and if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."

ty

[mfblume]

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

For Moses to say that it can only mean there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between what people would call a genealogical Jew and one WHO JOINED Judaism.

Otherwise, Moses could not say a proselyte becomes as one that is born in the land, but CLOSE to one born in the land. But he said TOTALLY AS ONE born in the land. TOTALLY.