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  #1  
Old 12-03-2010, 04:37 PM
houston houston is offline
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A ? about messianic jews.

Are there Messianic Jews that are "oneness?" Why are most Messianic Jews Trinitarians? Isn't that an oxymoron (Trinitarian Jew).
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Old 12-03-2010, 04:59 PM
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

Because Trinitarian Churches and literature are much more available than ours. When seeking they will usually be exposed to their doctrine first. Most usually believe what they are told at least for a season before exploring the word for themselves.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:06 PM
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

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Old 12-03-2010, 05:15 PM
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by houston View Post
Are there Messianic Jews that are "oneness?" Why are most Messianic Jews Trinitarians? Isn't that an oxymoron (Trinitarian Jew).
As MTD pointed out Trinitarian teaching is much more widespread than oneness. It is also important to view this in the context that both the Oneness and Trinitarian doctrines are strictly monotheistic.
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Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:34 PM
sandie sandie is offline
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

I'm a Jew, but I don't consider myself a Messianic Jew. I get a little uncomfortable with the idea of being Jewish, converting and yet still steeped in the ways of Judisam. But, that's just me...I don't' judge others for doing so.

I am 100% oneness, though I came to the Lord via trinitarian pentecostals.
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:22 PM
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandie View Post
I'm a Jew, but I don't consider myself a Messianic Jew. I get a little uncomfortable with the idea of being Jewish, converting and yet still steeped in the ways of Judisam. But, that's just me...I don't' judge others for doing so.

I am 100% oneness, though I came to the Lord via trinitarian pentecostals.
I think it may be different for those who practiced Jewish Orthodoxy before coming to Christ.
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"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:35 PM
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
As MTD pointed out Trinitarian teaching is much more widespread than oneness. It is also important to view this in the context that both the Oneness and Trinitarian doctrines are strictly monotheistic.
Trinitarianism is not strictly monotheism. It is in name only. Its really tritheism.

The Father is one person who is God.
The Son is another person who is God.
Holy Spirit is another person who is God.

Three persons who are co equal and co eternal and they are not each other.

Yet there are Messianics who do believe in Oneness.
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:43 PM
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A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

Without writing a book - - the following are the generalized basics:

Most protestant oneness groups view God as an 'absolute indivisible deity.' The Jews, however, from both an ancient historical and religious world view is expressed in the often quoted Shema, as ‘an absolute indivisible unity.’ While the words are very similar, the interpretation and application is quite different. Most gentiles simply will not accept the historic view of the Shema and would rather hold to the 11th century arguments developed by Rabbis to assist observant Jews in resisting the forced conversion to the Catholic Church during the 11th to 14th centuries.

Gentile Oneness believers, for the most part, view God as a three-sided monolith consisting of three facings, consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Trinitarians view God as a single being with three separate manifestations, not unlike being made in God’s image with a body, soul and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23 bases on Genesis 1:26 (NET) Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, [Heb. Term: m] after our likeness [Heb. Term: f], so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.”

Jews view God quite differently than non-Jews, i.e., there are three relational manifestations used by God toward mankind, the Father (soul), the Son (Messiah, physical projection), and the Holy Spirit of God (essence). All other manifestations of God are for instructional purposes only, not for relational fellowship) In addition to this, the Jews also incorporate all of the (infinite) methods, modes and manner of God’s existence, attributes in both corporal and non-corporal expressions of His relationship, both within and without of His creation(s). That is, Jews spend very little time, effort or energy in attempting to ‘define’ God (a task biblically defined as an impossibility, Isaiah 55:8-9 and all of Job 38-42 for just two examples). Rather, Jews spend the bulk of their studies on ‘how to please God’. That is, learning about Him (even to using anthropomorphic terms because there are no human terms or concepts that adequately express who and what God is) and how to live a life pleasing to Him, according to His revealed desires expressed within His instructions in righteous living (Torah, the Law). An undertaking that might prove beneficial to all professing Christians, (2 Timothy 3:16-17, Revelation 12:17; 14:12 & 22:14)

So, why do most Messianic Jews accept ‘a form of Trinitarianism’ over the absolute oneness doctrines? Because the trinity world view fits closer to the traditional and religious Hebraic view of God. Even when creating the argument that Christians (Catholics) believed in three gods, not the one God of Israel, these same Jewish elders could never bring themselves to changed the historical view of the Shema, God as an absolute unity.

The truth? Just look around. Men love to talk, speculate and make absolute statements about things they know nothing about! God has revealed Himself in three relational manifestations. It is through those chosen manifestations that we are to know God. The oneness movement may not like it or even accept it, but there it is – Bible! Further, there is not a single scriptural reference that requires an understanding of God, or how He chooses to relate to mankind, in order to provide His grace unto salvation to a person seeking Him. The biblical requirements are: Recognize that He exists and He alone is God, to have faith (full trust and confidence) in Him (Hebrews 11:6), and to obey Him (John 14:15).

When man can finally define their three separate and unique elements of existence (body, soul, and spirit), and explain their methods, modes, and required essentials of existence, and then be able to explain how these elements are uniquely combined (method, form, relationships, etc.) to create a singular and unique individual, then ---

Perhaps that person is qualified to express an authoritative opinion on what would be the correct world view concerning what constitutes the being called “God’ and explain His existence and nature. However, I think it is the height of idiocy for any person to make absolute statements about God composition, when they are so woefully ignorant about their own individual elements of composition and their required functional relationships. No human being is an absolute indivisible organism, we are, however, each an organism in absolute unity.

Bottom line, if one cannot explain their own elements of body, soul, and spirit existence and their functional relationships, how can they ever hope to explain these same things concerning God?

The right/wrong war between the primary elements of the Assemblies of God and the UPCI has been going on for almost 100 years. It is way past time for putting the whole thing aside and start seeking God’s face for a change, rather than engaging in another one-upmanship debate and seeking one’s own self justification at the expense of another soul.

The war whole thing started, not over how many gods there are, but over the correct formula for conducting baptisms, and the division grew from there - even to splitting the oneness movement many times over. However destructive this useless exercise may be, at least everyone get to 'be right' in their own eyes.
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Last edited by A.W. Bowman; 12-03-2010 at 08:48 PM.
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  #9  
Old 12-03-2010, 09:30 PM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Trinitarianism is not strictly monotheism. It is in name only. Its really tritheism.

The Father is one person who is God.
The Son is another person who is God.
Holy Spirit is another person who is God.

Three persons who are co equal and co eternal and they are not each other.

Yet there are Messianics who do believe in Oneness.
In Mobile, AL, several former OP's converted and joined the Messianic Jewish congregation. That congregation was Oneness and for a while, their existence helped to convince me that Jews were Oneness and that Oneness was the only Biblically proper way to view God.

I don't believe this today-- but at one time I did.
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Old 12-03-2010, 09:56 PM
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Re: A ? about messianic jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Because Trinitarian Churches and literature are much more available than ours. When seeking they will usually be exposed to their doctrine first. Most usually believe what they are told at least for a season before exploring the word for themselves.
Yep
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