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  #211  
Old 03-17-2010, 12:18 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by Esther View Post
He could not heal many because of their unbelief.
That's nice. Blame the people who come into our services with hope for a healing and a miracle if we can't produce. I have seen literally hundreds of people run out of Pentecostal churches because they "lacked faith" to get a miracle done in their lives.

The Pentecostal/Apostolic movement chews up and spits outs thousands of people every year rather than admit that most times no miracle will be forthcoming no matter what. Instead of admitting that there's something wrong with our doctrine, we tell other people that there's something wrong with them. And then we shun them and exile them rather than come to terms with our own inability to live up to the fantasy world that we have created.

Why don't we find a single Stephen alive today? Acts 6:8.

And... if you want to bring some one forth as "proof" - I will want some proof as well.
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  #212  
Old 03-17-2010, 12:29 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Yeah, I don't either. And I'm not sure that I have a point, but since NotforSale bravely opened the can of worms, I thought I'd go ahead and gush that the subject of healing has always bugged me.
I have never seen a miracle of healing even though I have been in services where others have said that one or more had taken place. Most of the time the "miracle" isn't even testified as having taken place at the meeting - we all just go our way and some enthusiastic fellow comes along later and says... "Oh! Oh! I was at this one meeting and there were miracles!"

"Really?" I ask. "I was there too and didn't see anything, nor did anyone else at the time."

Most of these claims are post hoc and real proof is never even offered. Any attempt to verify the published claims of healing are always met with a stone wall of silence and no cooperation in getting to the "proof."

Yet we use the "miraculous" as a standard of salvation? It's like the "speaking in tongues" fiasco.

I believe Jesus Christ, the man born in Bethlehem, was raised from the dead. I believe it, but I can't prove it. I find no evidence to refute it. I believe He really was who He said He was. I am forced to admit that this is my belief and I am bereft of anything that will allow me to beat someone over the head with it. That may have been an intended consequence as well.

But for all of the events for which there is no proof - AND actual evidence to the contrary? Why add that to our faith? If I am asking an unbeliever to believe something that cannot be proven nor disproven (the resurrection) why burden myself with a bunch of stuff that has already been disproven and that really doesn't add anything to my appeal any how?

Last edited by pelathais; 03-17-2010 at 01:06 AM.
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  #213  
Old 03-17-2010, 08:29 AM
Sweet Pea Sweet Pea is offline
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Re: Noah and the Ark

WOW - I couldn't even read the entire thread..... I became so disillusioned with some of you - To put it quite bluntly - I am shocked!!! I can deal with our differences in some things - but some of you have blown me away with your interpretation of the flood!

Do you even believe in creation? or do you believe that we "evolved" ????

I'm just shell-shocked right now.............

I DID catch some references to your questions regarding miracles as I scrolled through the last few posts...

I can first-hand say that I was miraculously healed. GOD removed a tumor from my left breast - I was scheduled for surgery - after a powerful prayer (and yes, I was anointed with oil) - the tumor was GONE !!!! The doctor confirmed it!

Some of you that I have always felt had a level-head in your posting style have just blown me away....

GOD CAN DO ANYTHING (but fail) - EVEN BEYOND OUR WILDEST COMPREHENSIONS !!!!! YES - I BELIEVE THE THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT OF THE ARK - YES, there are questions as to HOW it could have happened - but I believe it did! GOD doesn't have to have scientific or even realistic explanations for how HE does things!
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  #214  
Old 03-17-2010, 08:43 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

Sweet Pea - It's not a question of "What CAN God do...?"

It is a question of what DID God do?

The evidence is overwhelming. The earth is 4.5 billion years old and life developed here through a process that has been summed up as "biological evolution." There was no flood that covered the continents 4,000 years ago.

That is simply what God DID.

He is a miracle working God. He has made a universe for us in which we thrive despite the fact that the vast, vast majority of places in this universe would destroy life. We are tucked away securely (sort of securely) on our little planet as the heavens literally explode around us with wonder and majestic awe.

He nurtures us, as he has done for you in the healing that you described. But there has been a long process of growth (long to us! a very short "time" to Him) and development in this world. The Bible actually reflects that process if we accept it on its own terms and stop trying to force or newly contrived traditions upon it.
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  #215  
Old 03-17-2010, 08:48 AM
Sweet Pea Sweet Pea is offline
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Re: Noah and the Ark

Pel - I guess I'm one of the crazy ones to you.... I don't believe the earth is billions of years old.... I believe the Bible is literal (with the exception of the parables Jesus gave) - ...... I don't want to get into a debate about all this... I will scroll my mouse quietly down - post this one response and then leave this thread....
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  #216  
Old 03-17-2010, 08:50 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
Pel - I guess I'm one of the crazy ones to you.... I don't believe the earth is billions of years old.... I believe the Bible is literal (with the exception of the parables Jesus gave) - ...... I don't want to get into a debate about all this... I will scroll my mouse quietly down - post this one response and then leave this thread....
How old do you think earth is?
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  #217  
Old 03-17-2010, 08:55 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
Pel - I guess I'm one of the crazy ones to you.... I don't believe the earth is billions of years old.... I believe the Bible is literal (with the exception of the parables Jesus gave) - ...... I don't want to get into a debate about all this... I will scroll my mouse quietly down - post this one response and then leave this thread....
It takes a certain amount of "crazy" to be a really Sweet Pea, though.

It's just that I see more than one person told parables in the Bible.
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  #218  
Old 03-17-2010, 09:10 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
It takes a certain amount of "crazy" to be a really Sweet Pea, though.

It's just that I see more than one person told parables in the Bible.
Was the flood story a parable? If so, what are we supposed to learn from it? Earlier in the thread, NotforSale mentioned the use of the story as a fear tactic: toe the line, or else! If that's not its purpose, what is?
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  #219  
Old 03-17-2010, 09:14 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
. . .

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is another matter. If it did happened, what evidence should we expect to find? Eyewitness accounts? A significant stirring and cultural upheaval as the accounts spread?

Well, we do have evidence of that.
Good point. Not sure what physical evidence there could be for it! As for eyewitness accounts, do you believe any of the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses? None of them claim to be, far as I recall. Are there other eyewitness accounts, either Biblical or extra?
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  #220  
Old 03-17-2010, 11:07 AM
NotforSale NotforSale is offline
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
That's nice. Blame the people who come into our services with hope for a healing and a miracle if we can't produce. I have seen literally hundreds of people run out of Pentecostal churches because they "lacked faith" to get a miracle done in their lives.

The Pentecostal/Apostolic movement chews up and spits outs thousands of people every year rather than admit that most times no miracle will be forthcoming no matter what. Instead of admitting that there's something wrong with our doctrine, we tell other people that there's something wrong with them. And then we shun them and exile them rather than come to terms with our own inability to live up to the fantasy world that we have created.

Why don't we find a single Stephen alive today? Acts 6:8.

And... if you want to bring some one forth as "proof" - I will want some proof as well.
Pel, what you're saying here is the truth, whether anyone likes it or not.

Why is it that poster's like Sweat Pea, get all bent out of shape when people begin to expose the facts and fiction about who we are? You have said nothing in your comments that isn't worthy of consideration. People call it “Doubting”, or that “Unbelief” has strangled the heart, but if that was true, what is said by that person should be able to be proven to be a hoax; a lie. If people think you are lying, state the reason with the facts, not with another smokescreen of maybes.

The age old practice of using maybes to enlighten people is not only old, it creates Faith based Religion that draws from the well of “Spectral Evidence” where actual proof is deemed a rebellious notion. Don’t people see the danger in this?

It seems we are told to just accept something even though the Facts that God gave us, Creation, defy the theories presented by God’s own measuring stick. This doesn’t make sense to me, and appears to leave the door wide open for people to make up whatever they want to, and then demand that we believe them.

To anyone else reading this, just consider. Sit down, take a few minutes, or a few days and think about it. Is it wrong to challenge what we've been taught to believe? And, what are the consequences if we don't?

We live in a time where Truth is more available than probably any civilization that has ever lived. A Story, a Book, a Letter, a Religion, a Culture, these things can't hide under the canopy of a False Idea like in the past. This is not only a blessing, but becomes a responsible act towards the many people who’ve walked out our doors in absolute confusion about Faith when we admit we may have been wrong.

I can only imagine how Galileo felt. The Church and those with Faith looked at him as a heretic; a backslider. He was a fool to challenge those who knew what God was saying. But the Facts settled the score, and History has given us a man who didn’t back down, Galileo becoming one of the greatest scientists of all time.

If we back down under the same anger posed to this great man, will we pass on further darkness into the future, handing our children the baton of a lie.
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