The Spirit Realm

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Really? Something that can move mountains is not a force? It might be well to reflect how God is inescapable, in a manner of speaking, and, uh, well and nothing

Do you take this scripture literal? I don't think Jesus was referring to natural mountains. It is interesting to me that many times in scripture Zion, Jerusalem, etc. is referred to as a mountain. Also in the book of Revelation there is a mountain cast in the sea. I have never known of someone literally moving a mountain in the natural.

I am not saying God cannot do it, but all this power in thought stuff places us as the power source rather than God. My faith is in God when I don't see the mountains moved that I desire in my life. I know of a diabetic to take such a leap of faith that they left an insulin pump at the alter. That was many years ago and they still suffer with diabetes. I am stilling praying for God to heal them. I know that my God is a healer. True faith says not my will but thine.

The thing is as David said concerning his sick child,

Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me.

You see every time I pray I feel like I do so with faith in God and I never know what God will do. I simply trust him. I know he can, but I don't feel like I am a failure because of a lack faith when something doesn't happen.

I personally feel like most of the ask and ye shall receive scriptures where in regards to the baptism of the Holy Ghost. These blab and grab it preachers have polluted the truth. Many times taking advantage of the naive for filthy lucre. God is not a genie in the bottle that has to do what we tell him, and our faith is not a force independently working miracles on it's own. All power in heaven and earth belongs to God....

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Really? Something that can move mountains is not a force? It might be well to reflect how God is inescapable, in a manner of speaking, and, uh, well and nothing

No, faith is not a force. Faith is 'the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for'. Faith is actually a verb, meaning to put your confidence in. Having faith means you have confidence in something. In the case of Christians, it means having confidence in God. God does things - heals, works miracles, etc - and we have confidence in God to do what he said he would do.

Faith is not psychic (ie mental, concentrative) power, whereby we bend reality to our wills.

THAT is occultism, pure and simple.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Quantum physics isn't really science, per se. It's pagan philosophy and metaphysics in modern western secular materialistic verbiage.

if this is true, then the math will not work out, i wouldn't think? And also we will always have Nassim H's suggesting better models. So i don't see how you can really believe that. Bohr's Atom is a reflection of God, imo.

That last statement makes no sense whatsoever. But anyway...

As for 'the math not working out', do you understand the math? Can you examine the math and determine if indeed it 'works out'?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

That last statement makes no sense whatsoever. But anyway...

As for 'the math not working out', do you understand the math? Can you examine the math and determine if indeed it 'works out'?

Also, you have to remember - there is a difference between a mathematical equation, and a CONCLUSION about reality drawn from that equation.

And then, on the third hand, there is the real world.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you are uncomfortable with this because it impugns upon your religious understanding, but if it is not true then it won't produce any fruit, and it will die, and if it is true then resistance is useless. But it is no less reverent of God, necessarily.

You seem to think you know quite a bit about me and what I am comfortable and uncomfortable with. Aquila can do as he likes. I am not uncomfortable discussing any of these subjects. I guarantee you I can discuss subjects and explore thought experiments that would make Bob Dylan blush.

I DISAGREE with some of the things being said here because I have 'been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, and used it for an oil rag.'

I used to LIVE this stuff, I was raised in it. I was studying Urantia, and Evans-Wentz, and Paramahamsa, and Iyengar before I ever entered high school.

I was also studying Regardie, Crowley, Mathers, and others during that time, and afterwards.

I am telling you, this is basic hinduism/buddhism 101. And it's the same thing in kabbalah, Hermeticism, Thelema, Gardnerian Wicca, blah blah blah.

And it's a lie.

I mean, if someone is trying to use this as some higher knowledge of faith to get a Mercedes Benz, it isn't going to work anyway, is it?

Janis didn't pray hard enough, I guess?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Do you take this scripture literal? I don't think Jesus was referring to natural mountains. It is interesting to me that many times in scripture Zion, Jerusalem, etc. is referred to as a mountain. Also in the book of Revelation there is a mountain cast in the sea. I have never known of someone literally moving a mountain in the natural.

I am not saying God cannot do it, but all this power in thought stuff places us as the power source rather than God. My faith is in God when I don't see the mountains moved that I desire in my life. I know of a diabetic to take such a leap of faith that they left an insulin pump at the alter. That was many years ago and they still suffer with diabetes. I am stilling praying for God to heal them. I know that my God is a healer. True faith says not my will but thine.

The thing is as David said concerning his sick child, You see every time I pray I feel like I do so with faith in God and I never know what God will do. I simply trust him. I know he can, but I don't feel like I am a failure because of a lack faith when something doesn't happen.

I personally feel like most of the ask and ye shall receive scriptures where in regards to the baptism of the Holy Ghost. These blab and grab it preachers have polluted the truth. Many times taking advantage of the naive for filthy lucre. God is not a genie in the bottle that has to do what we tell him, and our faith is not a force independently working miracles on it's own. All power in heaven and earth belongs to God....

great points. I notice when i ask for a better understanding of some spiritual gift, or fruit, how to operate in it, i always seem to get an answer, usually in the form of a painful lesson, because of course the reason i was lacking in the gift is due to some blind spot i have.

I also notice that the answer is easy to overlook in the moment, and i don't see until i'm in bed that night that some situation i avoided with ego was an answer to a prayer.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You seem to think you know quite a bit about me...

my fault, make that "we" there.

Originally Posted by Esaias

No, faith is not a force. Faith is 'the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for'. Faith is actually a verb, meaning to put your confidence in. Having faith means you have confidence in something. In the case of Christians, it means having confidence in God. God does things - heals, works miracles, etc - and we have confidence in God to do what he said he would do.

Faith is not psychic (ie mental, concentrative) power, whereby we bend reality to our wills.

THAT is occultism, pure and simple.

personally i tend to agree, although i still see faith as a force. But rather than suggest that science could possibly ever map the mechanics of faith into the physical, to reduce it to a formula to be followed, i would say that aspects of God are revealed in science if one realizes what they are looking at; and religion seems to try to do pretty much just that anyway.

So, is Georges Lemaître "saved" because he developed the Big Bang theory? Even if he was an atheist, though, the Big Bang theory is an elegant explanation of something from nothing that we take for granted nowadays; if you told a scientist 100 years ago that BB explained the beginnings of our universe now, he would assume some reversion to Middle Ages thinking had occurred religion-wise, and that current day scientists were back under the yoke of the church.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

That last statement makes no sense whatsoever. But anyway...

As for 'the math not working out', do you understand the math? Can you examine the math and determine if indeed it 'works out'?

No, but i can witness that physicists admit that the math does not work out, and they do not try to hide this; the point being that no one is trying to blow any smoke, as they would be found out.

Now, what they might do instead is use the knowledge to make bombs and chemicals instead of less financially rewarding pursuits, but if there were no market for these then they would not flourish. Unfortunately the math does seem to work well enough when it needs to.

So i'm not trying to say that one might find Christ by reading Einstein, but they surely might see aspects of God reflected in physical reality if they look for them, and in fact we accept some quite fantastic things to be true now, that mostly all point to a Creator, Hawking notwithstanding. It can at least be argued that science is proving God, one discovery at a time; and that the Hawkings of the world will fade into obscurity with an atheistic model.

So, would i send a seeker to Einstein for Christ? No, but i wouldn't send them to church, either. Or, it depends upon the seeker. And if someone is only interested in the walking on water part and avoids the sacrifice part, then they will be found out soon enough.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

...And it's a lie.

hmm, i would say more that it is used for deception, yes--"we need an atom bomb, we need a portal to some Nth dimension," ...--but that is men manipulating it, just like men manipulate religion, so i see a two sided coin, just like everywhere else.

i mean, is it a lie that brought us electricity? Is electricity inherently evil? Making you pay for it might be, according to Tesla anyway. Lionizing the Edisons of the world over the Teslas might be. But how do you get to "physics is a lie?" Do you think the actual discipline is evil, or is it that the inevitable abuse makes it evil?

[Esaias]

I never said physics is a lie. Electricity wasn't brought to us by the quantum crowd.

Please read what I actually say, and don't build strawmen or confuse classical physics with quantum mythology.