One commandment!!! Could not even keep one commandment! If they did or did not have a sinful nature then what in truth was wrong with them that they could not even keep one simple easy commandment.
Do you possibly think that maybe Satan knew something that we can't seem to resolved? Maybe he saw something in them that we don't see! You think.
Come on, just one commandment, I could do that one when I was lost in the world and never thought about God. If he would have appeared to me in that way it would have been enough to keep me not only away from that tree , but after seeing him I probably would have, just to have stayed on his good side, stayed away from all the trees, if fact I would not have even gone into the forest in the first place.
One, just one simple rule and they couldn't even do that. Something was way far wrong in them somewhere.. May be they were mentally challenged or was having a bad day after tending the garden. They could have had a lovers quarrel. Maybe it was one of those days when Adam was to manly and bossy and Eve didn't like it so she just was under some post stress thing
There has to be a logical reason behind it as we see it today. With all the knowledge we have in understanding the human nature of people there had to be something they had experienced to make them do that. Maybe! they weren't perfect in some way like we aren't perfect in some ways.
I wonder in what way are we not perfect? Maybe we just can't resist sin because it's too tempting. Maybe they didn't take God serious because after all, he was around from the beginning and was common for them to see him. Maybe they took him for granted and really didn't believe that he meant what he said. If they didn't have a sinful nature in the spiritual ream then what was it in the natural ream.
Maybe that what's really wrong with the church today that is powerless. They are operating in the natural ream and not in the spiritual ream. Maybe it's because they don't think there is any need to change the spiritual ream of themselves, just get the word in their mind and believe on it and things will all come together.
After all, all we have to do is sit back and let God take care of everything, because he is in control and their is no responsibility toward us to do anything except enjoy.
Austin, consider this. Adam was not deceived. Eve was. Adam knew exactly what he was doing. There is more to meets the eye here. Adam did not want to lose Eve more than he wanted to serve God.
Adam was definitely perfect. He just made the wrong decision. After God made man He said it was VERY GOOD. Not just good.
Jesus had the same potential to sin as did Adam. He was tempted, but He sinned not. To be tempted means to have the desire to sin and to have sin appeal to sin. Was Jesus not perfect?
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Austin, consider this. Adam was not deceived. Eve was. Adam knew exactly what he was doing. There is more to meets the eye here. Adam did not want to lose Eve more than he wanted to serve God.
Adam was definitely perfect. He just made the wrong decision. After God made man He said it was VERY GOOD. Not just good.
Jesus had the same potential to sin as did Adam. He was tempted, but He sinned not. To be tempted means to have the desire to sin and to have sin appeal to sin. Was Jesus not perfect?
First of all as your read my post you can see I'm being coy. I agree with what you said concerning Adam and you and I are on the same page with the nature of man which to us is proven by their weakness to simply keep one commandment and Adams weakness to be alone with God one more time.
They wanted to do the right thing because they both knew what was right and who God was. But in the same paradox today in modern religions, men also know what the right thing to do is. But in their efforts if they are not spiritually changed by the power of Jesus and have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost, they do not have the power to overcome sin and be lead by the spirit of truth.
My point to those who might think there is no change in the spiritual area of a human and yet profess to know God, my question is how commeth thou unto him?
But Mike on this subject of the Bible I think you and I along with the truth of the atonement are perfectly aligned with the teaching.
In regard to your point mike, here is a good example of what you just said.
The rich young ruler. he had kept all the commandments since his youth, even Jesus marvelled at that. But one thing that tested his real person was, when Jesus told him to sell all and give it to the poor.
His nature spiritually over ruled his nature mentally. So even though he was veru religious in a good sense he didn't have that spiritual power and nature of God to do the right thing in the name of compassion.
Was the rich, young ruler wicked from birth?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Just take what Paul said. Adam's act made us sinners, and it did not say it made us prey for being sinners due to a curse.
seems I don't see your sin nature in the verse.
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Man's curse is knowledge. Where are you getting this from? God did not curse man. And knowledge was not a curse either. God only cursed the ground for man's sake.
LOL... he cursed the ground and it would be against us. The law was knowledge yet also a curse. It was blessing and also a curse. LOL "for man's sake" LOL It was a curse against man. I find it funny you say he did not "curse man" YET you beleive we have a sin nature. Man is cursed with death which is external cursing. The ground was cursed which is a external cursing. Man is cursed with things that would bring question to him that was not the norm of his previous existance. That is knowledge. Adam faced his conditions which is new knowledge/trials he would have to deal with NOT BEING PROVIDED FOR. The knowledge of hunger, thirst, pain, death, love, hate in relation to his NEW enviroment apart from his original existance. All of this is application of situations to his emotions. Thus he brought THAT TO US! Thus knowledge of his circumstance, brings interaction with who he is and who God wants him to be. Having to provide, brings a certain knowledge of depravity he would have which would result in fear and still need to have faith. The counter to "faith" is other knowledge and possibility. This is basic natural law.
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Here again is your legalism coming forth. We are not righteous because of obedience. Christ is made our righteousness, and being in Christ alone makes us righteous.
We are not in Christ unless we obey. CLEAR SCRIPTURE! Of course we are "righteous" in him. We are not IN HIM UNLESS WE OBEY! lol We cannot be considered righteous unless we obey and we cannot be considered righteous due to sin unless we follow him and his blood cleanses us from our sin. TWO ASPECTS! You make it a forensic righteousness only and that misses the WHOLE of what scripture teaches.
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What made us righteous in 2 Cor 54:21? Obedience? No. Christ became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM.
Two different aspects see above. Christ righteousness brought forth the provision of right standing in him in which justice is done toward our sin through repentance. We are not IN HIM unless we obey which is true repentance..
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Col. 1 shows that God is in Christ, and we are put IN CHRIST by faith, and thereby are also made righteous.
Faith is obedience. You are not in Christ unless you are obedient from the heart and offer yourself wholly to him.
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This works based righteousness of yours has to distort what Romans 5 says cannot work with 2 Cor 5:21. You cannot get away from righteousness being justice. Righteousness is RIGHT STANDING as well. That has not room in your theology, though. Your view makes the flesh put its two cents' worth in there every time, and it leads to boasting.
No you simply don't get the multiple aspects but are just like reformed with a failed understanding how salvation is offered and how we remain in right standing. Salvation is a mongergistic in source by a synergistic relationship. You have no standing without obedience. You claim works based on what I teach, shows you are clueless to what has been said.
here is one of the definitions of nature
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing
what is one quality mankind shares save one? A sinful nature.
why is it man knew the law but broke it any way? When God stated you will die adam, yet adam disobeyed.
Yet every person since then has committed sin just like their father. save One
That means the rightous and the wicked both have committed sin
Were only made rightous through Christ,
Even Paul a man filled with the Spirit was waging war against his flesh
Saying the things i know i should do , i dont do, and the things i shouldnt do, that is which i do.
it doesnt matter the enviroment you grow up in. you could have the (so called) perfect home perfect education, perfect manners, but in the end we still sin.
Thats what we are, sinners.
again i believe were born innocent, but even kids will grow up to be a sinner, I know only one who didnt.
Sinfulness is a human charcteristic. its very much apart of our nature.
here is one of the definitions of nature
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing
what is one quality mankind shares save one? A sinful nature.
why is it man knew the law but broke it any way? When God stated you will die adam, yet adam disobeyed.
Yet every person since then has committed sin just like their father. save One
That means the rightous and the wicked both have committed sin
Were only made rightous through Christ,
Even Paul a man filled with the Spirit was waging war against his flesh
Saying the things i know i should do , i dont do, and the things i shouldnt do, that is which i do.
it doesnt matter the enviroment you grow up in. you could have the (so called) perfect home perfect education, perfect manners, but in the end we still sin.
Thats what we are, sinners.
again i believe were born innocent, but even kids will grow up to be a sinner, I know only one who didnt.
Sinfulness is a human charcteristic. its very much apart of our nature.
your points are totally missing the source of my point. You are arguing about current conditions of which one is brought up in which is not the point. My contrast is that of conditions originally of Adam to now. You are contrasting condition UNDER the curse. Apples and oranges. Also your reference to Paul is wrong. Most scholars believe is he referencing someone else.
your points are totally missing the source of my point. You are arguing about current conditions of which one is brought up in which is not the point. My contrast is that of conditions originally of Adam to now. You are contrasting condition UNDER the curse. Apples and oranges. Also your reference to Paul is wrong. Most scholars believe is he referencing someone else.
concerning Paul i will continue on with the I being Paul, in this verse. I will take a look at it in more depth at a later time. But currently i have no reason to believe that he is speaking about someone else besides himself
With all the talk of the sin nature, faith, obedience, works, etc.... I thought I'd include a brief summary on what I believe about salvation and our nature...
To many, salvation is a mystery. Some believe the born again Christian can sin and is saved no matter what. Others believe in a legalistic tight rope of obedience that keeps the born again Christian saved.
Both are lies from Hell.
Before we can delve deeper into what the Bible teaches concerning salvation, we must understand our sinful condition.
Man is a three part being. Man is composed of body (Grk. Soma), soul (Grk. Psuche), and spirit (Grk. pneuma). The body is the physical part of man. It includes a human being’s biology and anatomy. The soul is a man’s psyche, the mental, immaterial, and self aware portion of a man’s being. The spirit of a man is his essence of life, his very life force. Think of it like hardware, software, and electricity.
When Adam fell into sin, Adam was cursed. The curse resulting from sin changed Adam’s entire nature. The body became subject to pain, disease, and death. The soul became subject to carnality (desire to please the flesh). The spirit was cut off from union with God; therefore the very essence of Adam’s life began to fade into a state of spiritual death. This is our fallen nature. Our bodies are constantly craving pleasure and comfort as it slides into the grip of death. The soul naturally seeks to please the flesh and make it comfortable. And the spirit of man is dead through sin, unable to overcome the desires of the flesh to live out the life man was meant to live. This is our new fallen nature, the result of sin.
Every human being born is born in this state. You don’t have to train a baby or a young child to seek their own pleasure and comfort. It’s natural. You don’t have to teach them to be selfish, un-sharing, or even to lie to preserve self interest. It’s natural for them… it’s the fallen nature. It’s SIN. As human beings grow into maturity the soul learns socially acceptable ways to please the flesh and preserve the self. This is the carnal mind. This too is SIN. The spirit of a man is dead and lifeless, while the soul seeks answers to the unknown and the questions of morality, the spirit is incapable to attaining divine understanding and so false ideas, false religions, and heresies originate from the spiritually dead spirit of man. And these too cater to the carnal mind, which seeks to please the self and flesh.
This fallen state with its fallen nature is man’s default position before God upon conception. While the personal record of chosen sin is clean, the very nature of the unborn and the infant is fallen. It’s not what it was designed by God to be.
Praise God, our Lord had a plan from before time began predicated from start to finish upon His grace and mercy. In eternity past (before God even created the angels) God knew what would befall the creation. God knew every choice that would be made by His creation from Satan to the last man that will ever be born. And in God’s omniscient wisdom, God ordained every choice to be so… overriding nothing and essentially setting it in stone. Thus all things are predestined according to God’s foreknowledge. No choice ever catches God off guard. God is never on the edge of His seat hoping we’ll “choose to do the right thing”. God knows exactly what our choices and actions will be… and knew those choices and actions before the heavenly hosts were created. In the midst of this, God ordained a plan. The Cross. That Jesus would come into the world and die in man’s place, reconciling all who believe in Him and obey the Gospel will be saved. In God’s omniscient foreknowledge God chose all who He foreknew would obey the Gospel and recorded their names. Ah… the elect. Not one will be lost, for they are secured in Christ according to God’s will. Yet all will freely choose. The argument regarding free will and predestination is a false dichotomy. Both are absolutely true and necessary to preserve both God’s holiness and God’s providence.
When the Father begins to draw a man into a relationship, He does it through the Spirit. The Spirit begins to convict a man of sin and his fallen state. The Spirit begins to illuminate the mind to become spiritually aware of his need for a savior and often the basic things of God concerning the Gospel. It’s God’s desire that all be saved, and so the Father does draw and tug at most in some fashion, but only the elect are those who will surrender to the spiritual drawing of the Father. For them it is both their choice… and an irresistible destiny ordained in the foreknowledge of God.
Christ’s life and death provided atonement. That means that Christ’s life and death satisfied righteous demands of the Law of God. A sinless and pure man died in the place of all who would choose to believe, thus saving the human race as a whole from eternal alienation from God. Christ’s blood satisfied the legal demands of God’s Law, thus opening the door for the sinner who believes to be justified by faith alone.
The moment one of the elect chooses to believe in Jesus Christ according to the Spirit’s call, they are “justified”. This means that they are made just in God’s sight. It doesn’t matter what sins they have committed or are committing. Christ’s own righteousness is imputed to them judicially in God’s economy of justice. This means that this filthy, rotten, sinful, debased, creature (man) can approach God and request to be “born of the Spirit”.
When one is “born of the Spirit” the Holy Spirit comes to abide in that man’s very being. The Holy Spirit doesn’t just abide as one abides in a house. The Holy Spirit unites, becoming one with the very spirit of the believer. This infuses eternal life into the spirit of the believer, uniting them with God through the Holy Spirit. Now God is indwelling and is one with the believer. This is the spiritual regeneration that brings a man’s dying spirit to life. This union changes the very nature of a man’s essence. The very life force of the human being is now changed, infused with the divine nature of God Almighty. And the human being is now a partaker in God’s divine nature. The old man (old nature) is eradicated and man is essentially, on the very level of his essence, a new creature. This is known as regeneration. He is sealed and SANCTIFIED (past tense); the sanctification of his spirit complete.
To clear a man’s conscience regarding of his record of wrongs a man must be cleansed or washed. This is where baptism comes in. By being water baptized a man takes part in an outward demonstration of Christ’s own atoning work (death, burial, and resurrection). It is a type of circumcision, the sign of a covenant. When performed in the name of Jesus Christ, the man is now imaging Christ, and takes upon himself the name of Jesus Christ. Thus the record of wrongs that stand against a man is declared forgiven, the man’s conscience cleansed. Imaging Christ, being cleansed of the consciousness of sin, and taking on Christ’s name leads us to this next step… this is adoption. The man is now entirely in the family of God. Now one is born of both “water and spirit”.
Though the believer’s very spirit (inner man) is in union with the Holy Spirit and is sanctified being a partaker in the divine nature… a man’s soul is still functioning according to its desire to please the flesh and preserve the self. So now the battle begins as the believer seeks to establish harmony between his soul and his spirit, a spirit infused with divine grace and presence. So the believer finds himself still attracted to those sinful things that have pleased the flesh in the past. The believer still finds himself repeating the habitual behaviors that have pleased the flesh in the past. The believer, though his spirit is partaking in the divine nature of Christ Himself, is essentially trapped, subject to a carnal mind that still finds pleasure in sin. And so the believer must now engage in the process of renewing the mind through the Word of God. This requires prayer, study, listening to the preached Word, and focus on practice of those things taught. Slowly this begins to renew and overwrite the sinful patterns of the carnal mind. While the man’s spirit was sanctified and sealed upon regeneration, the man’s soul is being sanctified through a continual renewing through the Word of God and prayer.
The only part of man that isn’t so radically changed is the flesh, the man’s physical being including his anatomy, biology, and hormones. The flesh is still very much alive and fallen. Its desires and impulses scream to the soul for fulfillment. The soul is renewed through the Word of God a man must make a conscious choice not to fulfill the desires of the flesh. This is where sin and the saint often tangle. The saint of God finds that the un-renewed aspect of the soul (the carnal mind) is still prone to listen to the desires of the flesh. And so this carnality in the mind of a saint often causes the saint to choose sin. The saint of God finds that the very things he detests and doesn’t desire to do are the very things he finds himself doing. And the righteous and holy good that the saint desires to do… he often doesn’t do. This is the real war.
So now the saint of God is confronted with the sinful tendencies of the flesh and the carnal mind. As the saint grows in Christ they discover failures, faults, and sinful proclivities that war against the Spirit within. When sin is committed (and it will happen) a sense of condemnation and shame is encountered. This is because the saint’s actions are not on congruence with the divine nature of the Holy Spirit within. In fact, such shame and condemnation is one evidence of regeneration and being truly “born again”. Now the accuser will accuse the saint of sin. It is here that the saint must realize, it is not he that sins… but it is the principle of sin that resides in the fallen flesh and the still being renewed carnal mind. They must realize that they stand complete and perfected only in Christ Jesus. Their salvation is in no way determined by their actions, but is predicated upon Christ’s righteousness.
We often see people who appear to have been regenerated yield to the flesh and the carnal mind. Such will lead to alienation and death, being cut off by the departure of the Spirit of God. This isn’t an example of one who was truly born again, though they have “tasted of the heavenly gift” and the things pertaining to salvation. It takes place that it might be manifest to us who are of the elect that they were never truly of us. God isn’t in Heaven hoping they will choose to be better Christians. God already knows the choices that they will make and their inevitable spiritual shipwreck. Christ will NEVER loose one of His own. Christ will NEVER fail to preserve those who were called in Him from the foundations of the world.
Though the saint of God might indulge in sin, and even depart from the fellowship of the church for a season they will inevitably return to the fold. Why? Because God’s seed (the divine nature of the indwelling Holy Spirit) resides in them. Continual sin is against their nature and at some point the very divine nature of the Spirit will prevail and they will persevere in Christ.
Some argue against the above saying that it is inconsistent to say that the Spirit will not choose to depart from them and will cause them to persevere through Christ. They forget that for the elect, Christ is our propitiation. That means that Jesus was the object of God’s wrath upon the cross for every sin of the elect… past, present, and future. They have been secured in Christ predicated upon God’s foreknowledge and providential grace. With regards to the elect… the whole of God’s wrath against their sin is satisfied by the blood of Jesus Christ.
The key to spiritual victory isn’t "obedience", “trying harder”, or “trying to be a better Christian”. That's legalistic foolishness. Even at our best… we aren’t good enough. God is soooooo Holy… even the best of us is unworthy and incapable of gaining God’s approval. Salvation is only achieved through Christ’s righteousness received by faith alone. The key here is identity. The elect of God must know his identity in Christ. The saint of God is one with Christ. The saint of God’s “self” must be eradicated that the very person of Christ might be manifest and imaged in the person of the saint. It isn’t about rule keeping or “will power”… it’s about identity and “who power”. Christ IS the standard. Christ revealed all that the Father desires, and it is Christ in us that attains what the Father desires. The saint’s call is to be in such union with Christ, that Christ’s very heart beats within their chest. Their very shadows be seen with nail pierced hands. This oneness with Christ will overcome sin and the world, and it’s accomplished by faith and reckoning. Reckoning our identity as being consumed in Christ and reckoning Christ as being the one who pours forth from us as believers.
Life is a training ground, a battlefield, and a proving ground… proving to us who we are, demonstrating that God is just in His judgment. While one’s spirit is fully sanctified at regeneration, the mind (soul of a man) is being continually sanctified through the Word of God and prayer. Life will prove, test, and reveal the nature of those who profess Christ; the saint of God being inwardly compelled by the divine nature of the Holy Spirit to persevere. We cannot judge the eternal destiny of one based entirely on their current condition. Often those who struggle with the carnal mind throughout their lives find themselves transformed into all that God intended to be in the final stretch of their lives. This too is predicated upon the grace of God.
God’s ultimate desire for the elect isn’t that they be good Christians. It is that they be conformed into the very image and likeness of Christ. This isn’t accomplished by the law or religious observances of dos and don’ts. This is predicated entirely upon the indwelling nature of Christ through the Holy Spirit. It isn’t a modification of behavior, such is legalistic religion wherein the those who are not truly saved hide and appear to be the elect. The finished work of grace in the believer’s salvation is a change of nature. A change in being. A change in WHAT the believer is. Believers aren’t considered obedient predicated entirely upon their deeds… the believer is obedient because of WHAT they are in Christ… new creatures. Obedience (works) is the result of a changed nature… they are not the effort by which one attains salvation. Because obeying any specific list of rules doesn’t change one’s nature. Obeying the rules of the Amish makes one a good Amish. Obeying the rules of the Pentecostals makes one a good Pentecostal. Obeying the rules of the Southern Baptists makes one a good Southern Baptist. Christ is none of these, therefore these works of obedience do not make one like Christ. Legalism and law keeping is a siren’s song that will leave one shipwrecked upon the rocks of man made religion and self righteousness. Only the new nature produces saints who are conformed into the image of Christ.
Does this mean that we can sin that grace may be said to abound? As Paul said, God forbid!!! Those who do such only demonstrate that they are not of us and the love of the Father isn’t in them. The saint of God finds sweet peace, relief, and blessed assurance. An assurance that is transforming in it’s power. A freedom to be what God has made them…partakers in Christ’s divine nature that they might become… like Christ. So let us make our calling and election sure.
So let us ditch the “Pentecostal religion” and begin a journey of being conformed into the likeness and image of Jesus. Let it be said that we are crucified with Christ, and yet we live. Not us. But Christ who lives within us. Allow Christ to live out the divine life of the Holy Spirit through us… that when one beholds us… they behold Him. Let us go and … be Jesus. For that, and that alone, is the Father’s desire.
This is a brief summary of what I believe concerning salvation.
Faith is obedience. You are not in Christ unless you are obedient from the heart and offer yourself wholly to him.
Recipe for damnation.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It is reckoning that which isn't presently perceivable as being so. By faith I accept, and reckon it so, that Christ's very own righteousness is imputed to me. It isn't predicated upon my works... it's predicated upon His... the cross.
One isn't in Christ unless Christ is in them. When Christ abides in us through the Holy Spirit, in that day we accept by faith that Father is in Him, He in us, and we in Him. Oneness with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Obedience is the byproduct of our partaking of His divine nature. Obedience doesn't earn the divine nature or salvation... it is the result of the indwelling divine nature.
I have to comment on something...
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You are not in Christ unless you are obedient from the heart and offer yourself wholly to him.
God doesn't want you to give yourself wholly to Him. In fact, that's part of the problem for most. They want to give something detestable to God, the self. God isn't impressed with your self or your actions. In fact, God desires that your self be ERADICATED. That it be CRUCIFIED with Christ. That your very identity might fade into oblivion and that Christ be formed in you. God doesn't want you to give yourself to Him. He wants to kill your "self" and change your nature, making you holy not because of what you do... but because of what you are.
The only giving of self to God... is the giving of self that God might crucify it in Christ Jesus. After that, it's not by works of obedience, but by faith and a transformed nature.
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