True, it certainly isn't physical. It is speaking of people with pulses, yes. But does he really mean that their spirit has died? It doesn't say that. It just says "we were dead".
Did Adam's spirit die the day he ate? Really? He was from then on a walking, talking, breathing, spiritless human being?
Spiritual death does not n essarily mean the spirit died. It is a death that is not natural, but rather spiritual. It is a death to spiritual things.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, ...
We are made sinners by adam's sin as much as Christ makes us righteous.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Spiritual death does not n essarily mean the spirit died. It is a death that is not natural, but rather spiritual. It is a death to spiritual things.
Ah. OK, so when Adam died spiritually, as a result of eating the fruit, he went from "alive" to spiritual things to "dead" to spiritual things. And when he was "alive" to spiritual things, he didn't know good and evil, but after he "died" to spiritual things, he knew good and evil and became as a god.
Interesting.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Ah. OK, so when Adam died spiritually, as a result of eating the fruit, he went from "alive" to spiritual things to "dead" to spiritual things. And when he was "alive" to spiritual things, he didn't know good and evil, but after he "died" to spiritual things, he knew good and evil and became as a god.
Interesting.
Yeah. Knowledge of good and evil is not spiritual. It is mental. And that is what is so appealing. It is so religious. people mistaken religious knowledge for spirituality. Sinners KNOW things. That does not make them spiritual.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Yeah. Knowledge of good and evil is not spiritual. It is mental. And that is what is so appealing. It is so religious. people mistaken religious knowledge for spirituality. Sinners KNOW things. That does not make them spiritual.
In regard to your point mike, here is a good example of what you just said.
The rich young ruler. he had kept all the commandments since his youth, even Jesus marvelled at that. But one thing that tested his real person was, when Jesus told him to sell all and give it to the poor.
His nature spiritually over ruled his nature mentally. So even though he was veru religious in a good sense he didn't have that spiritual power and nature of God to do the right thing in the name of compassion.
In regard to your point mike, here is a good example of what you just said.
The rich young ruler. he had kept all the commandments since his youth, even Jesus marvelled at that. But one thing that tested his real person was, when Jesus told him to sell all and give it to the poor.
His nature spiritually over ruled his nature mentally. So even though he was veru religious in a good sense he didn't have that spiritual power and nature of God to do the right thing in the name of compassion.
amen!
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
It's possible they did have a sin nature but were innocent until they yielded to temptation.
However I don't believe that they were created with a sin nature. Wouldn't that mean they were created corrupted?
Yes it would. Either man was created upright or not. Because mankind received a fallen enviroment and other related conditions does not mean he was created with a "sin nature." Given true free choice and temptation means you will fail especially lacking overall knowledge in many respects. Adam and Eve did not need a sin nature to sin. They had motive and opportunity as all are given. I would say yes... if man was born with a "sin nature" which is a one sided view of mankind ability. It would be def be creating a corrupted creature. Natural law cleary teaches reasons why man does what he does and sin nature has nothing to do with it.
One commandment!!! Could not even keep one commandment! If they did or did not have a sinful nature then what in truth was wrong with them that they could not even keep one simple easy commandment.
Do you possibly think that maybe Satan knew something that we can't seem to resolved? Maybe he saw something in them that we don't see! You think.
Come on, just one commandment, I could do that one when I was lost in the world and never thought about God. If he would have appeared to me in that way it would have been enough to keep me not only away from that tree , but after seeing him I probably would have, just to have stayed on his good side, stayed away from all the trees, if fact I would not have even gone into the forest in the first place.
One, just one simple rule and they couldn't even do that. Something was way far wrong in them somewhere.. May be they were mentally challenged or was having a bad day after tending the garden. They could have had a lovers quarrel. Maybe it was one of those days when Adam was to manly and bossy and Eve didn't like it so she just was under some post stress thing
There has to be a logical reason behind it as we see it today. With all the knowledge we have in understanding the human nature of people there had to be something they had experienced to make them do that. Maybe! they weren't perfect in some way like we aren't perfect in some ways.
I wonder in what way are we not perfect? Maybe we just can't resist sin because it's too tempting. Maybe they didn't take God serious because after all, he was around from the beginning and was common for them to see him. Maybe they took him for granted and really didn't believe that he meant what he said. If they didn't have a sinful nature in the spiritual ream then what was it in the natural ream.
Maybe that what's really wrong with the church today that is powerless. They are operating in the natural ream and not in the spiritual ream. Maybe it's because they don't think there is any need to change the spiritual ream of themselves, just get the word in their mind and believe on it and things will all come together.
After all, all we have to do is sit back and let God take care of everything, because he is in control and their is no responsibility toward us to do anything except enjoy.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, ...
We are made sinners by adam's sin as much as Christ makes us righteous.
Besides the serious lack of actually saying that you do realize the huge flaw in this don't you? We are sinners because like Adam we sin. Because of Adam and his curse man is given a weakened condition of provision. Thus "many" where made sinners because of Adam's sin.
Rom 5:19 For even as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted [or, caused to be] sinners, so also through the obedience of the one [Man], the many will be constituted righteous. ALT
What "caused us" to sin? A sin nature or the curse for man to provide for himself and see death which made him care for his life as a influence? Man original position was of life without fear or knowledge. Mans curse is knowledge that makes faith questionable. ADAM'S INFLUENCE was due toa curse because of his sin in which he had to toil and provide and also realize death. Adam and EVe received a lie that questioned God given knowledge, truth or not. They sinned. We improperly evaluate as well the depth a gravity of life and right and wrong, death and hell.
MAN/ADAM by himself in the flesh sinned as did Eve. We are brought to righeousness by Christ because Christ is beyond the flesh and the perfection
of God made known to man. Thus Adams original condition was passed to man which did not have a divine nature but dependant on God so even we are now. Because one mans sin death passed to all men. = no tree of life. BEcause one man sinned many where made sinners = no divine communion to be perfected in law but weakness in the flesh to do. The consistent contrast of Paul is Spirit vs through the weakness of flesh to do. Are you perfected by the flesh or by the Spirit? Not that the flesh has a "sin nature" but that flesh in itself is not Spiritual nor can it know the mind of God. It is only partial aspect of mans need in this existance. Man needs divine guidance. The flesh simply seeks it own and the mind responds and hears and is influenced by hunger, thirst, pain, or being tired. Man was put in a diffcult situation thus his tendency of man in relation to the curse would cause or influence man to sin under the conditions. Also we are righteous because we obey the gospel. Heb 5:9 We don't have something imputed simply without a response. Your view lack any justice of God toward man.
Besides the serious lack of actually saying that you do realize the huge flaw in this don't you? We are sinners because like Adam we sin. Because of Adam and his curse man is given a weakened condition of provision. Thus "many" where made sinners because of Adam's sin.
Just take what Paul said. Adam's act made us sinners, and it did not say it made us prey for being sinners due to a curse.
Quote:
Rom 5:19 For even as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted [or, caused to be] sinners, so also through the obedience of the one [Man], the many will be constituted righteous. ALT
What "caused us" to sin? A sin nature or the curse for man to provide for himself and see death which made him care for his life as a influence? Man original position was of life without fear or knowledge. Mans curse is knowledge that makes faith questionable.
Man's curse is knowledge. Where are you getting this from? God did not curse man. And knowledge was not a curse either. God only cursed the ground for man's sake.
Quote:
ADAM'S INFLUENCE was due toa curse because of his sin in which he had to toil and provide and also realize death. Adam and EVe received a lie that questioned God given knowledge, truth or not. They sinned. We improperly evaluate as well the depth a gravity of life and right and wrong, death and hell.
MAN/ADAM by himself in the flesh sinned as did Eve. We are brought to righeousness by Christ because Christ is beyond the flesh and the perfection
of God made known to man. Thus Adams original condition was passed to man which did not have a divine nature but dependant on God so even we are now. Because one mans sin death passed to all men. = no tree of life. BEcause one man sinned many where made sinners = no divine communion to be perfected in law but weakness in the flesh to do. The consistent contrast of Paul is Spirit vs through the weakness of flesh to do. Are you perfected by the flesh or by the Spirit? Not that the flesh has a "sin nature" but that flesh in itself is not Spiritual nor can it know the mind of God. It is only partial aspect of mans need in this existance. Man needs divine guidance. The flesh simply seeks it own and the mind responds and hears and is influenced by hunger, thirst, pain, or being tired. Man was put in a diffcult situation thus his tendency of man in relation to the curse would cause or influence man to sin under the conditions. Also we are righteous because we obey the gospel. Heb 5:9 We don't have something imputed simply without a response. Your view lack any justice of God toward man.
Here again is your legalism coming forth. We are not righteous because of obedience. Christ is made our righteousness, and being in Christ alone makes us righteous. What made us righteous in 2 Cor 54:21? Obedience? No. Christ became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM. Col. 1 shows that God is in Christ, and we are put IN CHRIST by faith, and thereby are also made righteous.
This works based righteousness of yours has to distort what Romans 5 says cannot work with 2 Cor 5:21. You cannot get away from righteousness being justice. Righteousness is RIGHT STANDING as well. That has not room in your theology, though. Your view makes the flesh put its two cents' worth in there every time, and it leads to boasting.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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