Revising Pentecostal history: 1908-1912

[good samaritan]

I simply admitted I cannot know for certain the moment of Paul's salvation.
Let me turn the question around on you-was Paul saved before the words of Acts 22:16 were spoken or not?

Scripturally he was not. God can do what he would like, but I wouldn't use this as a reason to dismiss Jesus name baptism.

If you want my best educated guess, I would say BEFORE, and base that on the reception of the Spirit which (like the case of Cornelius) seemed to take place prior to baptism, as per Acts 9:17-18.

Do you know someone personally that has been filled with the Holy Ghost that died so quickly they did not have a chance to get baptized. I have confidence that God would not allow such a situation, but if it happened it is his decision.

And if that is the correct conclusion (and according to the order given in Acts 9 it seems to be) then the account of Cornelius' household receiving the baptism of the Spirit prior to water baptism wasn't just "an exception" as you asserted earlier in this thread.

Certainly not an exception many are filled with the Holy Ghost before baptism. If they are full of the Holy Ghost they will have a desire to be baptized.

Furthermore then, considering both Acts 9:17-18 and 10:44-48 (to say nothing of Romans 4:10) you have to explain how your view of baptismal regeneration (the idea that we do not receive forgiveness from sin until we are baptized) is consistent with people receiving the Holy Ghost while still in sin (an unclean vessel).

I don't know about Esaias, but IMO forgiveness occurs at true repentance. Baptism is the burial or the covering of those sins. Act 2:38 says we are baptized for the remission of sin. I believe that the sin is forgotten from the record at baptism. IMO

And then if you say that sins are forgiven in water baptism, as David Bernard does in his book "The New Birth" then the burden of proof is on you to explain how such a person can be lost because the don't speak in tongues.

As Bernard writes on page 115 "Repentance and water baptism together COMPLETE the full work of forgiveness. At baptism God washes away sin by removing the eternal record and PENALTY of sin."

Or refute the UPCI manual when it states under the subheading "Repentance" "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance.

Of course I expect you to say that neither Bernard, nor the UPC manual are the authorities, and of course I agree. My point is that you (and all OPs) have a real problem on your hands with the simple question "at what point are sins forgiven?

"

I believe forivness occurs at repentance, but baptism is answer to good conscious toward God. Do you believe that when two people commit to a monogamous relationship that they are married or do they go on and have a ceremony and make it official. If we refuse Jesus name baptism after repentance we are continuing in our disobedience and that results in our becoming a sinner. I don't think that the water in baptism takes on a supernatural work, but our obedience is a supernatural work.

If they are forgiven and bear no guilt, how can they still go to hell b/c they haven't spoken in tongues?

I see your point, but it is just hypathetical and it still gives no authority for someone to consciously reject Jesus name baptism or the infilling of the Holy Ghost. For your argument to be valid a person would have to die immediately upon repenting. There is another issue, what is repentance? I think that repentance is more than an apology and a confession of faith. Just because someone on their death bed says they are and that they believe on Jesus that does give me security at all of where they are going. I hope they make it. You are in essence advocating a teaching that says they can do such things and get by. Maybe unintentionally.

If you thus say a person's sins are forgiven when they receive the Holy Ghost (and by this you mean not to separate if from speaking in tongues), then why do you stress the washing away for sins in Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:38? And what of Mark 16:16 which would contradict this view?

Again, I feel forgiveness occurs at true repentance. Baptism is a result of repentance. Repentance means to change ones mentality. I'm not going to sin, but now I am going to follow Jesus. Well what did his word say: Be baptized in Jesus name and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost. Yes you do speak in tongues when you get the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is given as a initial sign of the Spirit baptism. You probably say that you judge by the fruit of the Spirit, by which I say you are partly correct. If I see some speak I am witness to the Spirit baptism (confirmation) If they live like the devil afterwards I would doubt their experience. If there was no tongues there is no witness of the Spirit baptism. There are atheists who dimonstrate the good works that we could associate with the fruit of the Spirit.