Revising Pentecostal history: 1908-1912

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Esaias am I misapplying your quote here? To me it seems as if you are saying the old Pentecostals would say 75-85% of Pentecost is apostate, and you seem to agree. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Read my quote again. I said the old timers, BOTH ONENESS AND TRINITARIAN, would consider 80 some odd percent of us today as backslidden and apostate. Why? Because of the practices etc we have in modern Christendom. I have read their writings. They taught CLEARLY a standard of salvation. They ALL, without a single exception I could find, taught that conversion results in ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION AND HEART PURITY, and ANYONE teaching LESS than that was deluded, deceived, and either unconverted, apostate, backslidden, a minister of Satan, or some other such. They taught denominationalism was PURE WORLDLINESS, period.

Their standard of full salvation was light years beyond anything I have heard preached or taught in Pentecost today. What they called normal most today call impossible.

Yes I referred to you as one of the "open minded liberal types". Do you consider yourself open minded, or closed minded? Do you identify with conservative Pentecostals or not? If you are not open minded and liberal but close minded and conservative then my apologies.

I just find it laughable that the ones who generally fancy themselves as more accepting of other viewpoints are usually the quickest to judge others who don't agree with them, usually make condemning personal attacks against others' character, and generally play the hypocrite. This thread was about the beliefs of Pentecostals in the period from 1908-1912. YOU came in and made a PERSONAL JUDGMENT against me, and brother Epley, with ZERO CAUSE.

YOU say you accept us as Christians and saved? Really? Couldn't tell that from your tone.

[Jason B]

I consider myself open minded toward those who confess the full deity of Jesus Christ, trust in Him alone for salvation, and have lives that are characterized by the fruit of the Spirit. They love to gather with other believers, to pray, to read His Word. I'm open minded toward their salvation and to fellowship with them. I'm not open minded with people who claim to be Christian but don't believe the Bible is the Word if God, live lives that bear no spiritual fruit nor desire, and in general give all of Christendom a bad name. (Eg easy believism, seeker sensitive, emergent, word of faith/prosperity, and liberal theology segments of Christianity).

I identify as oneness in theology proper (not soteriology) but I pastor and fellowship with trinitarians. However this past weekend I preached in a very conservative oneness Pentecostal church. I don't think Pentecostals are lost, I believe they misunderstand the gospel, the grace of God, and legalistic. Some people say that's enough to be lost. IMO I don't think so. God is the judge, not my opinion, but I believe I experienced genuine salvation as a member of the UPC and my change in views is the result if scripture study, not a conversion.
Thus I believe if justification is by faith, that the one who has the faith that justifies us still right with God even if they THINK they are right because they believed AND got baptized. Or spoke in tongues ,or keep standards, or tithe, or really all of the above. Is someone's ignorance about the meaning of baptism, a sign gift, communion, etc enough to cause them to be rejected by Gid *IF* they truly have repented of their sins and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ? I don't think so. I think we will be caught by surprise by grace and the efficacy of the atonement for those who believe.

[Michael The Disciple]

I consider myself open minded toward those who confess the full deity of Jesus Christ, trust in Him alone for salvation, and have lives that are characterized by the fruit of the Spirit.

Well isnt that a lot of what this is all about? What IS the full deity of Jesus Christ to YOU?

Trinitarianism certainly does NOT IMO teach the full deity of Jesus. Rather they teach he SHARES deity with two other co equal and co eternal persons.

Thus I believe if justification is by faith, that the one who has the faith that justifies us still right with God even if they THINK they are right because they believed AND got baptized. Or spoke in tongues ,or keep standards, or tithe, or really all of the above. Is someone's ignorance about the meaning of baptism, a sign gift, communion, etc enough to cause them to be rejected by Gid *IF* they truly have repented of their sins and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ? I don't think so. I think we will be caught by surprise by grace and the efficacy of the atonement for those who believe.

It seems Jesus was very concerned that many would be caught by surprise. Did not he actually tell the Apostle Peter that FEW will find eternal life?

Few? What does that mean? Obviously the masses in Churches today teach OSAS or other forms of easy believism. Will they not be shocked on the day of judgment when they are rejected by Christ?

And yet I believe many Pentecostals who have over the years adopted teachings invented by Evangelicals will meet the same rejection.

Having said that I do believe God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ Rom. 2:16. For some that will work out to the good to others to the bad and yet even with that understanding Jesus said FEW will find eternal life.

[Esaias]

He said few would find the way that leads to life. That's not even counting those who find the way, but fail to go on through to the end...

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

He said few would find the way that leads to life. That's not even counting those who find the way, but fail to go on through to the end...

True.

[GISG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

True.

I always feel so defeated when I realize the depth of meaning of "few".
I have a good friend who spent over 20 years in a UPCI church and still thinks "work out your own salvation" covers everything.
She believes in the trinity and oneness and for the life of me I can't get her to explain to me why or how that can be.
Is she still part of the "few" am I? Who is........

[Jason B]

Define few.

If we say that unless someone:
1)is baptized as an adult
2)in Jesus name
3)speaks in tongues
4)keeps dress standards(including uncut hair)
5)pay tithes
6)does not forsake the assembly

Leaves pretty much no one. If we say there are 10 million of them, that means 0.0013% of the worlds 7.2 billion population is saved (if my math is correct).

99.9987% damned to hell forever.

That'd make me feel defeated.

I don't see the "few" as those who fit into my own little box and agree with everything I think is important, but rather as all those believers across Christendom who have truly repented of their sins, trusted in Christ, and been regenerated by the Spirit. It's not the "visible" church which includes tares amongst the wheat, but the "invisible" church.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Define few.

If we say that unless someone:
1)is baptized as an adult
2)in Jesus name
3)speaks in tongues
4)keeps dress standards(including uncut hair)
5)pay tithes
6)does not forsake the assembly

Leaves pretty much no one. If we say there are 10 million of them, that means 0.0013% of the worlds 7.2 billion population is saved (if my math is correct).

99.9987% damned to hell forever.

That'd make me feel defeated.

I don't see the "few" as those who fit into my own little box and agree with everything I think is important, but rather as all those believers across Christendom who have truly repented of their sins, trusted in Christ, and been regenerated by the Spirit. It's not the "visible" church which includes tares amongst the wheat, but the "invisible" church.

So you feel the things I have bolded in the quote are all thats essential to enter the kingdom of God? If thats all there was do it it would not equal "few". I think 70% of Americans believe Jesus rose from the dead.

The shock is going to be not who we thought would not make it that did, rather who we thought would make it that did not.

That will equal "few".

Why does this make you feel defeated? If one is filled with the Spirit there is no reason they cannot do the will of God. I mean THAT is the ultimate requirement for entering the Kingdom.

To me it is awful to think there are systems of Christian theology where they teach doing the will of God is not essential to salvation. Its like they are robbing people of their faith in Jesus....and if they dont shake it off and come to believe the truth there is certainly no hope for them.

Thats why Jesus said "few".

[Jason B]

I post on my phone, so all I see is text. I don't know what you bolded.

The "makes me feel defeated comment" was echoing was GISP commented.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So you feel the things I have bolded in the quote are all thats essential to enter the kingdom of God? If thats all there was do it it would not equal "few". I think 70% of Americans believe Jesus rose from the dead.

The shock is going to be not who we thought would not make it that did, rather who we thought would make it that did not.

That will equal "few".

Why does this make you feel defeated? If one is filled with the Spirit there is no reason they cannot do the will of God. I mean THAT is the ultimate requirement for entering the Kingdom.

To me it is awful to think there are systems of Christian theology where they teach doing the will of God is not essential to salvation. Its like they are robbing people of their faith in Jesus....and if they dont shake it off and come to believe the truth there is certainly no hope for them.

Thats why Jesus said "few".

Here it is Mike, and I've said this over and over. Mental assent does not equal salvation. Why is it oneness Pentecostals absolutely cannot discern between easy believism and justification by faith? Who really believes 70% of Americans is saved? Not anyone who understands the gospel. Who really believes anyone can be saved outside of a sovereign work of the Spirit of God in their life? And who's teaching believers they "cant " do the will of God?

There are many many guys who preach the gospel, who emphasize repentance, true conversion, and living a holy life that glorifies God.
Art Azertia
Paul Washer
David Platt
Ray Comfort
John MacArthur
RW Glenn
Voddie Balchaum
Steve Lawson
Al Mohler
Charles Lieter
Tim Conway
etc.

To say nothing of the people who have toiled long in the Lord's field and gone onto their reward (or in you guys view to the flames of damnation) like:
Leonard Ravenhill
David Wilkerson
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
Dietrich Boenhoffer
John Wesley
Charles Wesley
Issac Watts
John Newton
Hudson Taylor
George Mueller
Jonathan Edwards
Charles Spurgeon
John Hus
John Wycliffe
and thousands more.

These are examples of people who haven't been baptized with the name of Jesus spoken over them, nor spoke in tongues, but whose lives are completely devoted to God. These aren't people teaching easy believism, antinomianism, or a man centered gospel.

So let's not play games, there's plenty of examples. Are they all lost b/c they don't meet your criteria?

Are not the "few" those who truly repent and follow the Savior (compared to the masses who either refuse to believe or else claim to believe while continuing on in a sinful unrepentant life)?

You guys shut up the doors of heaven against essentially everyone.