Revising Pentecostal history: 1908-1912

[GISG]

If baptism in His Name isn't essential then why was it ever mentioned, never mind practiced by Jesus, then the Apostles in the Book of Acts.
Repentance seems to be a given in being necessary, but following the example of the water and Spirit birth in the Book of Acts isn't? That doesn't make sense. Jesus said we would have to be born of the water and Spirit.
It's what follows after that is what has always stumped me. Some say it's the outward appearance and the inward some say outward isn't necessary, but we need to keep the commandments and now I hear "doing the will of God", what does that mean exactly?
I once went to the Lord with these questions, not that they were a surprise to Him, however I voiced my thoughts all the same.
I felt that defeat I spoke of earlier, so much so I was actually planning on telling the Lord good-bye. I did say to Him, thank you for trying, but I'm not getting this and I know I can't possibly be doing things correctly, post obeying Acts 2:38.
I felt He spoke to me and said, "Love Me, love others and I'll take care of the rest". It's the sole reason I keep at this walk.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by GISG

If baptism in His Name isn't essential then why was it ever mentioned, never mind practiced by Jesus, then the Apostles in the Book of Acts.

I'm not saying it is wrong to believe in baptism invoking the name of Jesus. I was baptized in like manner, baptize in like manner, and do believe it is the more correct way to baptize from a New Testament and early church history perspective. However just because something is mentioned and practiced, doesn't mean it is essential for salvation (examples, fellowship meals, prayer meetings, observing the Lord's Supper, selling goods and distributing to the poor, etc). There is value in all of these things, some of greater spiritual degree than others, but I these things are post salvational. Things that characterize believers and are part of any healthy church body (with the exception of selling goods/land), but not essential to salvation. Else salvation is something we are continually working toward, never sure when we have done enough to be saved, or stay saved.

Originally Posted by GISG

Repentance seems to be a given in being necessary,

Yes. Essentially every gospel call to salvation (old & new testaments) either explicitly calls one to repentance or strongly implies it. There is no salvation without repentance. That much is very plain. And this issue of repentance is what will separate the sheep from the goats (not baptismal formula, not tongues, not standards).

Originally Posted by GISG

but following the example of the water and Spirit birth in the Book of Acts isn't? That doesn't make sense. Jesus said we would have to be born of the water and Spirit.

There are 21 conversions in Acts, 18 of them do not mention or imply tongues at all. Even just going to Acts 2, we see the call in v.38 and the response in v.41. How many people spoke in tongues? The Bible is absolutely silent about it. They repented and were baptized, just as Peter preached to them. Acts 2:38 contains two commands and a promise, not 3 commands. Beyond that, there is more to soteriology than the book of Acts. That's not to discount Acts (as I mentioned there are 18 conversions in Acts where tongues are not mentioned), but salvation is spoken about in the gospels by Jesus himself, and explained in the epistles, especially by Paul (and especially in Romans and Galatians) and by the apostle John (especially in 1 John). To look only at the book of Acts and attempt to make Acts 8,10, and 19 normative for all Christians of all time not only fails to match up to what we see in all of recorded church history (2nd-21st century) but also does not agree with the New Testament witness. The idea that repentance, baptism, and speaking in tongues is what it took to be saved isn't consistent with the whole of New Testament teaching.

And yes, in John 3 Jesus said we must be born again, there is serious question whether the water refers to baptism or natural birth in John 3. I'm not sure that it matters what one's interpretation is on that because the real point is that except someone is born of the Spirit they can't be saved. Even if we say John 3:5 is referring to baptism, I think we can all agree that the real emphasis is on the birth of the Spirit, new birth from above/regeneration.

What I find interesting is that OPs will hang on the water/spirit doctrine based on this (perhaps faulty) interpretation of John 3:5 and totally ignore that the entire theme both of the gospel of John, and the Epistles of John is BELIEVE. Right from the start we see this in John 1:12 and he closes his book with it in John 20:31. Jesus Christ himself strongly emphasized believing unto salvation many many times, most of which tends to be minimized by those who adhere to the water/spirit doctrine. John 1:12, 2:11, 3:15-18, 4:39,41,53; 5:24, John 6:28-29, 37-47, etc (you know we could keep going for a long time on this). Point being, Jesus talked an awful lot about believing unto salvation, but 3 steppers don't seem to care. Its all just swept under the rug. And let's not assume he wasn't aware of false converts who "believed" but didn't really. John clearly makes the distinction between those who "believed" with a false, shallow belief (see John 2:23-25; 6 {the entire chapter}, and 12:42-43 for example).

Thus any soteriological system that demands a man must do more than repent and trust in Christ (i.e which adds baptism, and especially tongues to salvation) has the burden of proof laid upon it to harmonize, not only the gospels and the various teachings of Jesus himself, but also everything that follows Acts (Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, 1 John, etc).

Originally Posted by GISG

It's what follows after that is what has always stumped me. Some say it's the outward appearance and the inward some say outward isn't necessary, but we need to keep the commandments and now I hear "doing the will of God", what does that mean exactly?

Some concentrate too much on the outward. The fact is if the Holy Spirit dwells within, the Spirit will take care of the outward. It will come together, because God is working, not because man is demanding. Sadly the scripture "man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart" is used for so-called Christians to mutilate their body, which is supposed to be the Temple of the Holy Ghost. However just because something is abused by people who really don't desire holiness in the inward parts anyway, doesn't mean we need to judge all who don't abide by our standards as infidels. If the Holy Spirit dwells in a woman, she will cover up her body. If he dwells in a man, he will try to be careful what he looks at and what he exposes himself too. To be born again is to live a Spirit led life, and if someone truly has the Spirit dwelling within, they don't need a pastor/church to give them a long list of do's and don'ts. Why can't we trust the Spirit to produce fruit in His own?

Originally Posted by GISG

I once went to the Lord with these questions, not that they were a surprise to Him, however I voiced my thoughts all the same.
I felt that defeat I spoke of earlier, so much so I was actually planning on telling the Lord good-bye. I did say to Him, thank you for trying, but I'm not getting this and I know I can't possibly be doing things correctly, post obeying Acts 2:38.

That's what legalism does. It beats you down, because NO ONE actually keeps ALL the rules/standards. We all sin (though as we grow in Christ we should certainly be seeing sin be purged out of our life and conforming more and more like Christ).

The greatest truth one can ever understand is that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us who believe. We don't have to perform "post Acts 2:38", we don't have to keep ourselves saved, nor live a righteous enough life to be accepted of God. We are accepted of God based on our belief in and submission to Christ as our Lord and Savior, and it is His blood that cleanses us from ALL iniquity (prior to conversion and also after). Salvation isn't just being forgiven at water baptism and then living a godly life to "stay saved". Salvation is the act whereby God declares us right in His sight and adopts us into the family. We are not hired as if we are working during a probationary period and may be let go if we fail to perform, we are adopted, we are His children, and can have supreme confidence in that.

Originally Posted by GISG

I felt He spoke to me and said, "Love Me, love others and I'll take care of the rest". It's the sole reason I keep at this walk.

Amen, and He will.

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." ~2 Timothy 2:19

[Michael The Disciple]

So let's not play games, there's plenty of examples. Are they all lost b/c they don't meet your criteria?

Are not the "few" those who truly repent and follow the Savior (compared to the masses who either refuse to believe or else claim to believe while continuing on in a sinful unrepentant life)?

You guys shut up the doors of heaven against essentially everyone.

No one will be lost because they dont meet "my criteria". If you recall first off I said God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ. That is the bottom line.

And yet it is Christ himself who has proclaimed the destruction of all men who do not do his will. I alone would never make such statements but the Lord of glory....the judge of all has said these things many times. I am simply a believer in him....including the things that HE SAID.

Nothing you have said trumps this.

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:1-5

Nothing you have said carries any more authority than this.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom. 8:12-13

Nothing you said outweighs this:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 8:51

Faith ALONE will not get us into Heaven.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves James 1:22

We find statements like these EVERYWHERE in scripture. Inspired by the Holy Spirit even Jesus.

It is not my intent by reminding people (Apostolics or otherwise) about these words to make them feel "defeated". They have never made me feel defeated. They give me direction and clarity that I might know what Christ expects out of his people.

The Apostles did not feel they were laying burdens on people by telling them the will of God. They told them and then praised those who were doing it.

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil. 2:12-13

They expected Gods will to be done not otherwise.

They encouraged all men to do so not encouraging them they would still enter the Kingdom of Yeshua Messiah if they did not.

3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 2 Thess. 2:3-4

So Jason it is not me who has set the standards of Jesus Christ but he himself. The reason I cry out against Evangelical teachings such as the "finished work" theory is because it does not give a person enough truth to wind up in Heaven in the end.

They leave men thinking they are ok when in reality they are far from ready to meet the Lord.

As to "Apostolics" once past the Oneness teaching and Acts 2:38 they have a lot more truth to come to. False traditions like men shaving, women not cutting, paying tithes and obedience to men over Jesus has left them short of the kind of fruit the Lord is expecting.

Long story short we all must do the will of God OUT OF A LOVE FOR HIM.

I shudder for people who dont realize this. Peace, Mike

[Jason B]

Mike, you know I don't disagree with any of that. You and I are pretty much like minded in what the Christian life should look like, but differ in how someone comes into a right relationship with God.

You (ought to) know I never say "faith alone" is sufficient when that faith is dead. We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone, as so well described in James 2:16-24 and Ephesians 2:8-10.

As for teaching the Word, I preached in the county jail last night to a group of prisoners. I preached from John 6 (most of my emphasis was on v.14-15) and preached about people trying to make Jesus King on their terms instead of Hus, connected that with this phony Christianity of the day (which you and I both denounce) and then somehow wound up in 1 John 1:6-2:6. This was a really engaged group of guys, asking questions, and allowing me to get very plain about the Christian faith and to challenge them to their faces about jail house religion. Near the end they actually applauded because I had been so plain with them (I had to ask them to stop). My point with them was to expose any false confidence or hope in easy believism and drive them to the Savior. You can't speak from 1 John 1:6 without talking about the necessity of living a godly life. All kind of things come up in these services (because I allow open dialogue, if someone has a question, they can interject it at any time-then I follow the leading of the Spirit). Nevertheless my point is, the gospel is being proclaimed, and you guys (OPs) should rejoice, instead you believe we are just giving people false assurance.

Preaching the gospel, emphasizing the absolute necessity of full and complete repentance from sin and surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and warning people from Hebrews 10:26-31 and 2 Corinthians 13:5 and 1 John 1:6-2:6 is, IMO, that proclamation of truth is pleasing to God.

[good samaritan]

Acts chp 8 speaks of Samaria believeing and recieving the word of God, but the Holy Ghost did not fall on them till later when the apostles where sent and prayed for them. Simon obviously must have seen something supernatural take place when this happened to have asked for the power to lay hands on people to be filled with the Holy Ghost. It is a no brainer that everyone needs the Holy Ghost. I think people are losing their faith for the supernatural. I know of people who attend apostolic churches for some time, but yet haven't spoken in tongues. I don't think we should downplay their walk with God, but yet we should not try and pacify them and make them think they have all they need.

Can someone have the Holy Ghost and not have spoken in tongues? I personnally believe and teach they will experience tongues as the initial evidence. It is not three steps to salvation but it should be the first steps taken when we enter a relationship with Jesus Christ. The moment a person puts their faith in Christ that relationship begins, but if we are to stay in that relationship we must walk in obedience to God's word.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike, you know I don't disagree with any of that. You and I are pretty much like minded in what the Christian life should look like, but differ in how someone comes into a right relationship with God.

Im glad for that in which we do agree. I suppose I was kind of springboarding from the dialogue between you and Esaias. I do believe very few (compared to the whole) will find final salvation as he seems to. Neither of us are promoting the Apostolic Pentecostal Churches as being the perfect example of a New Testament Church.

As to how to become a Christian I think we have been there before. I can see nothing that would explain the Apostles serving up Acts 2:38 to the crowd at Pentecost except for the fact they having been trained by Yeshua for several years to be his ambassadors felt it was in accordance with what he meant by being born again.

The fact that it was the first New Testament sermon ever preached and that all the Apostles were there having just spent 40 days with the resurrected Christ and they were all in one mind in this matter carries a lot of weight for me.

I started out as an Evangelical and certainly did not see this kind of teaching among them. I had to admit my teaching heroes were NOT teaching the same doctrine as the Apostles.

It was (and still is) hard for me to settle into an Apostolic Pentecostal Church. The only mainstream one that I actually was counted as a member and an Elder threw me under the bus because I taught as I still do "Biblical Perfection".

Yet Im ok with being identified with Oneness and Acts 2:38 new birth. I agree with them on that. There are Trinity Churches I may agree with more on other issues.

For me its not just as simple as Oneness groups are the way to go and Trins have nothing. Like I said I think you and I have been here before.

[Esaias]

The Bible says repent, be baptized in the name of the Lord, and you will receive the gift of the Spirit, which will empower you to obey all God commands.

How does teaching that "shut up the kingdom" to anyone? It will only shut out those who refuse to repent, be baptized in his name, receive the Spirit, or obey all Christ has commanded.

If 99% of mankind rejected the gospel, then 99% of mankind is lost. Not fair? Here's what is FAIR: 100% of mankind damned for their sins.

But God gives GRACE, a chance to escape the righteous and holy judgment of God against sinners. He offers a way - His way - to be saved.

All we are saying is do it His way, the way it is written in Scripture. That will only "keep out" those who refuse to enter in.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The Bible says repent, be baptized in the name of the Lord, and you will receive the gift of the Spirit, which will empower you to obey all God commands.

How does teaching that "shut up the kingdom" to anyone? It will only shut out those who refuse to repent, be baptized in his name, receive the Spirit, or obey all Christ has commanded.

If 99% of mankind rejected the gospel, then 99% of mankind is lost. Not fair? Here's what is FAIR: 100% of mankind damned for their sins.

But God gives GRACE, a chance to escape the righteous and holy judgment of God against sinners. He offers a way - His way - to be saved.

All we are saying is do it His way, the way it is written in Scripture. That will only "keep out" those who refuse to enter in.

And again I must say "clear and concise".

[Michael The Disciple]

One more thing Jason.

What I find interesting is that OPs will hang on the water/spirit doctrine based on this (perhaps faulty) interpretation of John 3:5 and totally ignore that the entire theme both of the gospel of John, and the Epistles of John is BELIEVE.

Yes this IS the biggest difference between us. Evangelicals look at faith as a one time event. On one certain day they believed. On THAT basis they feel they are not REQUIRED to do anything else.

They call this the "finished work" or the doctrine of being saved by "Christ alone".

We or I as the case may be see faith as the initial contact between God and man also. However we see faith as the vehicle that takes us into and through an actual walk or journey with Christ which INCLUDES ALL OF HIS TEACHINGS CONCERNING EVERYTHING.

So we can say yes we are saved by faith in the sense that its faith that brings us to be baptized into the name of Jesus. It is by faith we receive the Holy Ghost. It is by faith we set apart our lives to loving him and keeping his commandments.

EVERYTHING WE DO IS BY FAITH!

Thats what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ meant by believing in him. It means believing in THE THINGS HE SAID......not just seeing that the body of a Jewish man hung on the cross so we could be saved.

If one does not believe HIS WORDS they are not believing IN HIM. Amen?

The other part of the great divide between "us" and Evangelicals is we accept Jesus teaching that one is not "finally" saved until he has endured and overcome to the end.

Peter and Paul echoed this teaching from Christ did they not?

38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Heb. 10:38-39

See how this vindicates the truth of salvation BY FAITH? The Christian lives and walks BY FAITH. Faith that LEADS TO the salvation of the soul.

Peter taught the same.

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:4-5

And again the same teaching.

8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

So stage 1 of our salvation is where we are walking it out BY FAITH.

Stage 2 is when he comes and we are given immortality or eternal life.

[Michael The Disciple]

Jason,

Since part of this discussion deals with baptism in Jesus name I present my testimony how I came to it. You may have seen it before but it will show why I believe this truth is from Heaven for anyone interested.