Question about choice.

Truthseeker · #1 02-25-2011, 05:00 AM

Rom 9:11-17

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy .

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
KJV

Esau had no choice but to be hated,. nothing he did or could have to chnage that. It was predetermined by God.

Pharoah heart was hardened by God, again nothing he could have done either.

Who can resist his will?

Truthseeker · #2 02-25-2011, 05:06 AM

Rom 11:7-8

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day.
KJV

If God gives eyes that ine can not see do they not have no choice but to be blind?

crakjak · #3 02-25-2011, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Rom 9:11-17

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy .

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
KJV

Esau had no choice but to be hated,. nothing he did or could have to chnage that. It was predetermined by God.

Pharoah heart was hardened by God, again nothing he could have done either.

Who can resist his will?

I believe it it very important to try to understand these verses, in the context of the heart of God. That these verses reflect God's sovereignty to shape His creation to accomplish His greater purpose. Not that He inherently "hates" anyone, rather He designs boundaries in our lives to accomplish His will.

Listen to the ongoing story of Romans 9:

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Ultimately, both the vessels of honor and the vessels of dishonor, are both for the same purpose, to show both " good and evil". Why? So, that we can KNOW the living God. "...and this is eternal life... to KNOW the living God..."

I have used the example of, in a great house there will be "vessels of honor" and "vessels of dishonor", for example extremely expensive and beautiful pottery of art for display and "honor". Also, in the same house the dishonorable chamber pot, that is hidden and keep out of sight, but OH, how important for the convenience and sanitation of that house.

Which is really more valuable???? Only the owner of the house can really say!!!

All are for God's (the homeowner's) greater purpose, and He will eventually validate each, in the final resolution and redemption of the creation.

crakjak · #4 02-25-2011, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Rom 11:7-8

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day.
KJV

If God gives eyes that ine can not see do they not have no choice but to be blind?

Exactly!! God has a plan, and He will eventually redeem it all, but that is NOT His purpose just yet. "Blindness" is still in the earth, but evenually ALL will "see" and understand, and God will be " all in all".

Aquila · #5 02-25-2011, 09:24 AM

I'm an Arminian, God's a Calvinist.

Truthseeker · #6 02-25-2011, 01:31 PM

Anyone else have some input??

mfblume · #7 02-25-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Esau had no choice but to be hated,. nothing he did or could have to chnage that. It was predetermined by God.

Pharoah heart was hardened by God, again nothing he could have done either.

Who can resist his will?

Esau did not serve his younger brother in his lifetime. His descendants did. Pharaoh was a national leader and his life affected the nation. Predetermined decisions of God affect NATIONS, not individuals, and it is not as though individuals had no choice..

mfblume · #8 02-25-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm an Arminian, God's a Calvinist.

You have been reading facebook. lol

Truthseeker · #9 02-25-2011, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Esau did not serve his younger brother in his lifetime. His descendants did. Pharaoh was a national leader and his life affected the nation. Predetermined decisions of God affect NATIONS, not individuals, and it is not as though individuals had no choice..

That's way to fix it. lol

Truthseeker · #10 02-25-2011, 02:14 PM

If God hardened a nation then an individual within that nation has no choice but to be hardened?