Original Sin

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

An opinion: I agree.

"I" am in error? Or is everyone in error...?

If it was just for Adam to "rule forever", then YES; you would be correct. But you are missing
some vital evidence and information. It is found everywhere we look: on earth, and in the
universe. It is that everything is eroding; that is, getting old and dying out: and that which
is dying out is also being renewed.

It is the witness of death that brings the promise of life, for without death, there would be no
need of being renewed. It is the same with the day beginning in the evening, and is followed
by darkness: and then comes the promise of LIGHT. The evening represents OUR beginning in
creation; the night, the fall of man; the morning, our redemption. This witness is found in the
first six days: so it represents our creation to the END of our redemption: it is six days. Now
the sixth day is also from the evening, to the morning. So now the morning AFTER the sixth day
is the Day of Rest. It is eternal.

Yes, Beloved, you missed it. Not that I ever responded: but a dictionary will never resolve
our questions. Our witness lies in the content and context of scripture: it can only be found by
the Spirit that spoke to Moses.

Simon Peter's and Nicodemus' testimony are the same: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar
Jonah, for flesh and blood hast not revealed this unto you but my Father which is in heaven."

No, we will not live forever in a place that was not meant to abide forever. The Church
is eternal, and we meant to abide in Him that is eternal. When the believer received
the Holy Spirit, as we have obeyed the gospel, we have received eternity.

Scripture, as you say, is the deciding factor. We can't speculate and say that God foreordained man to not live on the earth forever because he foresaw man's fall and satan's rebellion, though.

Again, eternal means there is no beginning as well as no ending. So, the church is not eternal. It had a beginning.

To say everything is eroding, as in the second law of thermodynamics, called entropy, is still speculation to use that and say we were not meant to liver forever physically. I am not dogmatic about this next point, but who is to say the universe did not start degrading til Adam sinned? If not, how do you know? And who knows? Maybe a new heaven and earth are literal and that's why they're being made new. For us!

The fact remains that heaven is not an abode for the physical, since we are absent from the body when we die and ware with the Lord.

But you still never told me where you feel we'll spend eternity, location-wise.

If we leave the bible "as is," and realize redemption is returning us back to prefall status of Adam, the plainest picture is we shall rule forever in the physical on the earth.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Scripture, as you say, is the deciding factor. We can't speculate and say that (1) God foreordained man to not live on the earth forever because he foresaw man's fall and satan's rebellion, though.
Again, (2) eternal means there is no beginning as well as no ending. So, the church is not eternal. It had a beginning.
To say everything is eroding, as in the second law of thermodynamics, called entropy, is still speculation to use that and say we were not meant to liver forever physically. I am not dogmatic about this next point, but who is to say the universe did not start degrading til Adam sinned? If not, how do you know? And who knows? (3)Maybe a new heaven and earth are literal and that's why they're being made new. For us!
The fact remains that (4) heaven is not an abode for the physical, since we are absent from the body when we die and ware with the Lord.
But you still never told me where you feel we'll spend eternity, location-wise.
If we leave the bible "as is," and realize (5) redemption is returning us back to prefall status of Adam, the plainest picture is we shall rule forever in the physical on the earth.

Let's see:
(1): God did indeed ordain for man not to live forever in this flesh: else He would have
already created us in an immortal body, not subject to death in sin;

(2): Correct: eternity is eternal, as is God..and is not a place. We were created from
that which is eternal, so the Church is eternal in Him;

(3) "MAYBE the new heaven...": so you confess that you don't know. If YOU don't
know, how can you say I or anyone else, don't know?

(4) I have never said heaven is a place...you surmised that I said that;

(5) Redemption is buying man back from sin: it is NOT "returning us back to "prefall status" in the garden; rather, it is taking us back to God's original plan of expressing His love in man.

God's redemption is two-fold: (1) buy man back without a price; and (2) judge and punish sin.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Let's see:
(1): God did indeed ordain for man not to live forever in this flesh: else He would have
already created us in an immortal body, not subject to death in sin;

I MUST disagree with your assertion, for its premise is that when God, who is PERFECT (see Matthew 5:48), created Adam and Eve, He created them as IMPERFECT human beings.

Does not the infallible, inerrant words of Genesis 1:31 explicitly state that at the end of His act of creating the heavens and the earth on the sixth day, including ALL things that are therein, "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good"?

I am persuaded to believe that when God created the substantive body of Adam, as well as Eve, their bodies were meant to be immortal, however, when rebellion and sin entered the human experience, which brought into existence the "promised" judgment of death upon Adam's body, then it became a corrupt thing, therefore inheriting mortality as a result. If it were that sin had never entered into the human experience, Adam and Eve's bodies would never have died!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I MUST disagree with your assertion, for its premise is that when God, who is PERFECT (see Matthew 5:48), created Adam and Eve, He created them as IMPERFECT human beings.
Does not the infallible, inerrant words of Genesis 1:31 explicitly state that at the end of His act of creating the heavens and the earth on the sixth day, including ALL things that are therein, "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good"?
I am persuaded to believe that when God created the substantive body of Adam, as well as Eve, their bodies were meant to be immortal, however, when rebellion and sin entered the human experience, which brought into existence the "promised" judgment of death upon Adam's body, then it became a corrupt thing, therefore inheriting mortality as a result. If it were that sin had never entered into the human experience, Adam and Eve's bodies would never have died!

Beloved, my statement agrees with scripture
"Let us make man in our image...likeness...So God created man...". And then: "And God
formed man from the dust of the ground."

You are correct from the point of view of Gen. 2:7. Adam's BODY OF FLESH, like our own,
was not perfect because it was to know sin and death. That said, however, Adam was created
in God's image and likeness: eternal. God knew Adam was to sin, so He did not create him in
an immortal body, but "...formed him from the dust of the ground." That is, from a substance
(earth) that was not destined to be eternal! Thus, Adam's body was mortal from the beginning,
although death did not occur until sin was conceived.

Now, if the body of man was to be immortal, or not eternal, then so also that from which the body
was formed. That is not the case: for this universe was also created with a beginning and an end:
else why do the scriptures state "In the beginning...".

Tell me, from where or from what was this universe created? If God is eternal, and fills eternity,
where was the universe? "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word
of God, so that things that are seen were not made of things which do appear."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I MUST disagree with your assertion, for its premise is that when God, who is PERFECT (see Matthew 5:48), created Adam and Eve, He created them as IMPERFECT human beings.

Does not the infallible, inerrant words of Genesis 1:31 explicitly state that at the end of His act of creating the heavens and the earth on the sixth day, including ALL things that are therein, "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good"?

I am persuaded to believe that when God created the substantive body of Adam, as well as Eve, their bodies were meant to be immortal, however, when rebellion and sin entered the human experience, which brought into existence the "promised" judgment of death upon Adam's body, then it became a corrupt thing, therefore inheriting mortality as a result. If it were that sin had never entered into the human experience, Adam and Eve's bodies would never have died!

That is precisely the truth!

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, my statement agrees with scripture
"Let us make man in our image...likeness...So God created man...". And then: "And God
formed man from the dust of the ground."

You are correct from the point of view of Gen. 2:7. Adam's BODY OF FLESH, like our own,
was not perfect because it was to know sin and death. That said, however, Adam was created
in God's image and likeness: eternal. God knew Adam was to sin, so He did not create him in
an immortal body, but "...formed him from the dust of the ground." That is, from a substance
(earth) that was not destined to be eternal! Thus, Adam's body was mortal from the beginning,
although death did not occur until sin was conceived.

Now, if the body of man was to be immortal, or not eternal, then so also that from which the body
was formed. That is not the case: for this universe was also created with a beginning and an end:
else why do the scriptures state "In the beginning...".

Tell me, from where or from what was this universe created? If God is eternal, and fills eternity,
where was the universe? "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word
of God, so that things that are seen were not made of things which do appear."

You still don't get it! You are, in essence, stating that God, who is PERFECT, choose to create an IMPERFECT earth and IMPERFECT mankind, simply because Adam would, at some point after his creation come to a moment in time when he would "know sin and death." Preposterous!

That is re-writing the biblical story of creation to suit your corrupt philosophy, and its simply NOT true! According to your philosophy an IMPERFECT God created man "in His IMPERFECT image" and "after His IMPERFECT" likeness!

Where it is written, or even insinuated, anywhere in the scriptural record, that God created things with an "EXPIRATION DATE," as you seem to be alleging? Its NOT there! It was the introduction of sin which brought about the death of all things!

God did NOT "curse" the ground until AFTER Adam sinned, implying that at its creation it was, like man before sin corrupted his body, created in PERFECTION. Go read Genesis 3:17 wherein it is written in clear and unmistakable language; "cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life."

If Adam had not sinned he would have been able to continue to eat the herbs of the field and the fruits of the trees as God had been providing him prior to his act of sinful rebellion against His commandment!

Genesis 1:1 states "In the beginning" because that what it was PRIOR to the existence of God's creation of the VISIBLE, substantive universe and all that is therein, including mankind! Instead of the word "universe" in this passage, we find the word "heaven" instead, for that is what the universe is, the heavens.

Absolutely NOTHING existed until God spoke it into existence through the power of His Word. And, because God is PERFECT, then everything that He created was created as PERFECT, barring none. Even Satan, as an angel named Lucifer, was said to be PERFECT in his beginning, for God, being PERFECT, is incapable of creating things which are IMPERFECT!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

(1) You still don't get it! You are, in essence, stating that God, who is PERFECT, choose to
create an IMPERFECT earth and IMPERFECT mankind, simply because Adam would, at some point
after his creation come to a moment in time when he would "know sin and death." Preposterous!
That is re-writing the biblical story of creation to suit your corrupt philosophy, and its simply NOT true! According to your philosophy an IMPERFECT God created man "in His IMPERFECT image" and "after His IMPERFECT" likeness!
Where it is written, or even insinuated, anywhere in the scriptural record, that God created things with an "EXPIRATION DATE," as you seem to be alleging? Its NOT there! It was the introduction of sin which brought about the death of all things!
(2) God did NOT "curse" the ground until AFTER Adam sinned, implying that at its creation it was, like man before sin corrupted his body, created in PERFECTION. Go read Genesis 3:17 wherein it is written in clear and unmistakable language; "cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life."

If Adam had not sinned he would have been able to continue to eat the herbs of the field and the fruits of the trees as God had been providing him prior to his act of sinful rebellion against His commandment!
(3) Genesis 1:1 states "In the beginning" because that what it was PRIOR to the existence of God's creation of the VISIBLE, substantive universe and all that is therein, including mankind! Instead of the word "universe" in this passage, we find the word "heaven" instead, for that is what the universe is, the heavens.
(4) Absolutely NOTHING existed until God spoke it into existence through the power of His Word. And, because God is PERFECT, then everything that He created was created as PERFECT, barring none. Even Satan, as an angel named Lucifer, was said to be PERFECT in his beginning, for God, being PERFECT, is incapable of creating things which are IMPERFECT!

(1) Beloved, you should not call God’s plan preposterous just because you don’t understand it.
God KNEW Adam would sin: Gen. 2:17; or do you believe that God IS NOT omniscient?

Where have I said God was imperfect? Where have I misquoted scripture?
No, an omniscient
God created a perfect man, and “clothed” the man in a body of dust from a world that
was to be “…dissolved…”

Do you see that everything in the universe is dying? Why? Because it is created in time:
with a beginning and an end. In other words, the heavens and the earth are enclosed in time.
They are meant to “…pass away…”.

(2) Why did God curse the ground…was it not to affect Adam’s work of his hands? So the
earth was cursed “…for YOUR sake…”! Will you limit God: or add to the word?

(3) OK. Let’s use the word heavens and earth. So, nothing has changed. We can
“see” the visible elements of the heavens, because we were given physical
eyes with which to see.

(4) Almost correct: God SPOKE and created everything. However, it was
not by the power of His word; rather, it was “…by the word of His POWER.”
What you are saying is that you don’t know God’s plan: NO ONE called God imperfect or that
He created imperfection. Yet there is imperfection and sin: so, how do you explain that?

But answer MY question: Where was the heavens before they were created? God is eternal
and He fills all of eternity: where was he hiding the heavens? Did He make a void in eternity to place
the heavens (universe) and all that is therein?

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

(1) Beloved, you should not call God’s plan preposterous just because you don’t understand it.
God KNEW Adam would sin: Gen. 2:17; or do you believe that God IS NOT omniscient?

Where have I said God was imperfect? Where have I misquoted scripture?
No, an omniscient
God created a perfect man, and “clothed” the man in a body of dust from a world that
was to be “…dissolved…”

Do you see that everything in the universe is dying? Why? Because it is created in time:
with a beginning and an end. In other words, the heavens and the earth are enclosed in time.
They are meant to “…pass away…”.

(2) Why did God curse the ground…was it not to affect Adam’s work of his hands? So the
earth was cursed “…for YOUR sake…”! Will you limit God: or add to the word?

(3) OK. Let’s use the word heavens and earth. So, nothing has changed. We can
“see” the visible elements of the heavens, because we were given physical
eyes with which to see.

(4) Almost correct: God SPOKE and created everything. However, it was
not by the power of His word; rather, it was “…by the word of His POWER.”
What you are saying is that you don’t know God’s plan: NO ONE called God imperfect or that
He created imperfection. Yet there is imperfection and sin: so, how do you explain that?

But answer MY question: Where was the heavens before they were created? God is eternal
and He fills all of eternity: where was he hiding the heavens? Did He make a void in eternity to place
the heavens (universe) and all that is therein?

So, in essence, you're stating that BEFORE God created the earth, He determined that it would, at an appointed moment in the future, be dissolved. Is that correct? If so, then you're stating that God created something which was IMPERFECT! That is what I am stating is preposterous.

[mfblume]

A deteriorating universe is not very good.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

So, in essence, you're stating that BEFORE God created the earth, He determined that it would, at an appointed moment in the future, be dissolved. Is that correct? If so, then you're stating that God created something which was IMPERFECT! That is what I am stating is preposterous.

Beloved, God had a perfect plan to take sin in its subtlety.