Original sin?

[Luke]

What are arguments against original sin do you have? Personally I believe in original sin entirely but have noticed some on here do not?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Luke

What are arguments against original sin do you have? Personally I believe in original sin entirely but have noticed some on here do not?

Based on this definition from wikipedia, I would fall into the 2nd category:

"This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt.[3]"

I believe everyone is born with the propensity for sin, but that doesn't mean they are destined to sin, or that they have no power over themselves. I believe our sin nature will eventually win out in most cases, causing us to need God's mercy and His power to overcome our own nature, but I don't believe it is impossible for someone to live perfectly with God's help. Difficult, but not impossible. As far as I know, Enoch is the only recorded example of this. IMO, his devotion to God is the only thing that allowed his notable perfection. Otherwise, his sin nature would have caused the same implosion it does in everyone else.

From the wiki page: "Modern Judaism generally teaches that humans are born sin-free and untainted, and choose to sin later and bring suffering to themselves."

I agree with this, too. I do believe that we are born sin-free, but I also believe that it would be very difficult to remain that way--because of our sin nature. I DON'T believe that Adam and Eve's choice brought on the sin nature, because Eve and Adam obviously had both the ability and the propensity for sin before they ever partook of the fruit. This fact debunks the idea that their sin caused the "inherited nature." They were innocent until they weren't--a result of their own choices--and they possessed the ability to sin from the time God created them.

[mizpeh]

MissBrat, do you believe that Adam and Eve would have died if they had not disobeyed God? or is death a result of their sin? I know my question sounds like it is out in left field but I've always thought that since God made all things "good" that he made us good as well without a propensity for sin and that sin and the propensity for sin is a result of the fall. I'm not so sure now.

[shazeep]

hmm, seems like "and dying you shall die" answers that?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

MissBrat, do you believe that Adam and Eve would have died if they had not disobeyed God? or is death a result of their sin? I know my question sounds like it is out in left field but I've always thought that since God made all things "good" that he made us good as well without a propensity for sin and that sin and the propensity for sin is a result of the fall. I'm not so sure now.

I think if they had been continuously obedient, they would have lived forever. Sin brings death; not the ability to sin.

[shazeep]

How would you state the difference between the Law of sin and death and the doctrine of Original Sin?

(and i mean, "...as you currently understand it," shooting from the hip, no 'wrong' answers)

[KeptByTheWord]

Luke, how do you define original sin?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by shazeep

How would you state the difference between the Law of sin and death and the doctrine of Original Sin?

(and i mean, "...as you currently understand it," shooting from the hip, no 'wrong' answers)

In my opinion, Romans 8:1-8 is speaking in practical terms regarding our life in the flesh, and less about our eternal life. There is a qualifier that is repeated throughout the 8 verses: "...who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" ...and this statement is the key to the intent of the entire passage: "...to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace...."

Also, Romans 5:12-14 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Perhaps it's simpler to say that the result of Adam's sin was that sin and death were "introduced" to the world. Notice how it says, "Nevertheless death reigned...even over them that had not sinned [like Adam]...." It doesn't say "sin reigned"; only that death does, even over those who didn't break any commandments.

I'm having a hard time detangling the two terms, but it seems like "original sin" refers to the concept that we all [now] share a tendency toward sin, which seems a step further than a simple ability. The law of sin and death says that we are all sharing in judgment because of "one man's sin"--even if we are able to live our lives without breaking any commandments. (death still reigns)

[Luke]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Luke, how do you define original sin?

Original sin is the result of Adam and Eve's fall in the garden of eden and is passed down to each of us in that we are born with a propensity/bend to sin (sin/fallen nature) and are sinners at birth. Paul spoke of this in Ephesians 2 when he speaks of us being children of wrath by nature. Paul refers to it in Romans 7 as the law of sin and death, he refers to itin Ephesians 4 calling it old man, in Romans 6 it is called the old man and the body of sin. In romans 8 paul speaks of it as the carnal mind. In Galatians 5 (as in many places) it is called the flesh. David says that he was shapen in iniquity and in sin did his mother conceive him. In a nother place he says that the wicked go astray immediately from their mothers womb. Jesus says that all sin proceeds from the heart therefore the heart must be defiled and sinful before we ever commit sin otherwise how could our first sin preceed from our heart if we had to commit it before it could be in our heart.

To say that we are not born sinners but rather innocent and righteous begs the question are we then born christian? If so then apperently baptism, tongues, repentace and faith are not needful for salvation. If on the other hand babies are simply born innocent and righteous and remain thus until they sin this would open the possibility of someone living a sin free life and never needing a savior and therefore entering heaven on their on merits.

[shazeep]

Not under the curse of the Law, maybe? Sounds right. They're cursed.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I'm having a hard time detangling the two terms, but it seems like "original sin" refers to the concept that we all [now] share a tendency toward sin, which seems a step further than a simple ability. The law of sin and death says that we are all sharing in judgment because of "one man's sin"--even if we are able to live our lives without breaking any commandments. (death still reigns)

Nice. i'm convinced that you're having a hard time detangling those because the adoption of the doctrine that split the Church apart has been obscured from us, causing the first council of Trent to explode, and Augustine to roll in his grave--and all while agreeing with virtually everything Luke just said, except the 'born a sinner' part, probably; that is where the doctrine and the Law separate, i believe, depending upon how you define the phrase.

"We are freed from the law of sin and death."

Also, wouldn't born a sinner make your birth a curse, when we are told it's a blessing?
How can your birth be a blessing and a curse?

So it seems like a matter of timing, of when the curse is imputed, and (to me) the taking advantage of the subtle shift of perspective created in enabling you to see yourself as 'bad.'
http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the...ristian-Models