Original Sin

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Something to consider:
1) If physical bodies are for procreation, then why will we be like the angels who do not procreate after we receive immortal bodies in the resurrection?
2) I believe our bodies are for this world. And immortal bodies mean we will rule in this world for ever after the resurrection and pass between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm back and forth.
3) Psa 115:16 KJV The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
4) We're not meant to dwell in heaven forever.
5) What would have happened if Adam never sinned? He never would have died and gone to heaven!
6) Salvation points toward returning to man what Adam lost in the Garden before he sinned. That includes immortal physical bodies with which to rule this world. Heaven is only for disembodied souls and spirits after death until the resurrection. God put Adam to rule in the earth! THAT IS ULTIMATE KINGDOM truth, I believe.

(1) “Heaven and earth shall pass away…” EVERYTHING about this universe is
temporal, even our bodies. The new bodies that the faithful will receive are [eternal];
therefore, there is no need for procreation.Man is to live through procreation until the
fulfillment of God’s plan.

(2) Our bodies ARE for this world. Immortal bodies mean we will no longer be composed
of the dust of the ground, therefore not bound to the earth.

(3) This refers to this present time AND to our being bound to this earth by our
[temporal] bodies. Note: the earth is not for “the sons of God.

(4) Meaning we will not be eternal? Please qualify

(5) That is purely hypothetical. Sin was allowed because of the disobedient
angels; and not as a reaction, but proactive. God knew Adam would sin;
God knew iniquity would be found in Lucifer.

(6) Remember that all things in creation are temporal, even man’s “lordship”. The
“immortal” bodies you refer to were also temporal, or until Adam ate of the Tree
of Life! Then, and only then, would the ”temporal” bodies have been discarded and
changed to eternal.
I believe there is now a place for those who are to be saved, and
another place for those who have rejected salvation. It is not “heaven” (eternity).

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

(1) “Heaven and earth shall pass away…” EVERYTHING about this universe is
temporal, even our bodies. The new bodies that the faithful will receive are [eternal];
therefore, there is no need for procreation.Man is to live through procreation until the
fulfillment of God’s plan.

(2) Our bodies ARE for this world. Immortal bodies mean we will no longer be composed
of the dust of the ground, therefore not bound to the earth.

(3) This refers to this present time AND to our being bound to this earth by our
[temporal] bodies. Note: the earth is not for “the sons of God.

(4) Meaning we will not be eternal? Please qualifyhh

(5) That is purely hypothetical. Sin was allowed because of the disobedient
angels; and not as a reaction, but proactive. God knew Adam would sin;
God knew iniquity would be found in Lucifer.

(6) Remember that all things in creation are temporal, even man’s “lordship”. The
“immortal” bodies you refer to were also temporal, or until Adam ate of the Tree
of Life! Then, and only then, would the ”temporal” bodies have been discarded and
changed to eternal.
I believe there is now a place for those who are to be saved, and
another place for those who have rejected salvation. It is not “heaven” (eternity).

Will answer all when time permits. But let me ask you where you get the idea we will be in heaven for eternity.

Will get back!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Will answer all when time permits. But let me ask you where you get the idea we will be in heaven for eternity.
Will get back!

Are you of the persuasion that a "new heaven and a new earth" means a reworking
of today's natural realm?

[shazeep]

hmm, then why pray "on earth as it is in heaven," again? Ty

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Are you of the persuasion that a "new heaven and a new earth" means a reworking
of today's natural realm?

That does not answer my question. Let's go step by step.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

hmm, then why pray "on earth as it is in heaven," again? Ty

bingo!!!!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

(1) “Heaven and earth shall pass away…” EVERYTHING about this universe is
temporal, even our bodies. The new bodies that the faithful will receive are [eternal];
therefore, there is no need for procreation.Man is to live through procreation until the
fulfillment of God’s plan.

That is a speculative answer. The bible never says immortal bodies do not need procreation for the sake of repopulation.

(2) Our bodies ARE for this world. Immortal bodies mean we will no longer be composed
of the dust of the ground, therefore not bound to the earth.

That again is speculation. Adam's body was immortal. He did not have to go the tree of life to live forever UNTIL AFTER HE SINNED. Eating the fruit was not said to allow him to live forever and after Adam sinned, and death was inflicted upon him due to sin.

(3) This refers to this present time AND to our being bound to this earth by our
[temporal] bodies. Note: the earth is not for “the sons of God.

You say the earth is not for the sons of God, but where does the bible say that?

When we died we are absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6-8 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Bodies, immortal or mortal alike, are earth-suits, really. If we are absent from body and present with the Lord upon death, we are in Heaven. That means we do not require bodies to be in heaven. Bodies are not made for heaven. Heaven is not a physical place where one needs a physical body to interact with it. You cannot show me a map of the physical universe and point at certain coordinates in the physical realm and say this is where Heaven is.

(4) Meaning we will not be eternal? Please qualify

Eternal means no beginning nor any end. Not just no end like most people assume it means. So, we will never be eternal. We had a beginning. Only God is eternal. NOTHING ELSE. He gave us eternal Life when HIS LIFE was given to us. That alone is eternal.

But we shall live forevermore. So, what I mean is that we are only in heaven until the resurrection when we shall reunite with our immortalized bodies. And those bodies are made for the physical universe, not heaven. No where does the bible say we shall dwell in heaven forever. Yes, it's in dozens of hymns, but where is it in the bible? Where does the bible say our eternal home is heaven? No where. It is a false tradition. No biggie, really, but still false.

The only thing it says about forever is being with Jesus. 1 Thess 4:17. But it does not say Jesus is stuck in heaven forevermore. Wherever He is, there we will be. But it did not say it was heaven.

(5) That is purely hypothetical. Sin was allowed because of the disobedient
angels; and not as a reaction, but proactive. God knew Adam would sin;
God knew iniquity would be found in Lucifer.

You say it is hypothetical to believe Adam was meant to remain and rule on earth forever and not die and go to heaven? It is hypothetical for you to say Adam's body was not immortal until sin! It is hypothetical for you to say immortal bodies are not involved in procreation due to lack of need for people who never die. All you said about that was hypothetical.

So what if God knew Lucifer would sin? In fact, technically, Lucifer is not even known to be the devil by what scripture says. That is hypothetical. Many claim he was a Babylonian king. I tend to agree Lucifer is the devil, but just saying. No where does it say that Adam was not intended to remain on earth forever because God knew he would sin. No where does it say God did not plan for Adam to remain on the earth in the Kingdom He put Adam in over the world because God knew man would sin and would later die and go to Heaven to remain forever.

In fact the most logical way to read scripture and make conclusions is to go by what it said, add nothing to it, and let what it said leave us with what was intended. And if God put Adam in the earth to rule over it to live forever on it, that is the will of God for us in the future, to get us back on track from where Adam fell.

Adam was not in heaven when he fell and requiring restoration for mankind to die and go to heaven and be there to continue what what God planned for humanity. Adam was on earth! Earth was made for MAN. You think God is going to discard the physical universe that makes man look like less than the size of an element of an atom in comparison, just because God planned it to be temporal since he foresaw man sinning?

If there is a physical new heaven and earth, the fact remains there is a physical to endure forever, even if it is NEW and NOT YET. And THAT is what our physical BODIES were made for.

(6) Remember that all things in creation are temporal, even man’s “lordship”. The
“immortal” bodies you refer to were also temporal, or until Adam ate of the Tree
of Life!

Incorrect.

Nothing says Adam REQUIRED the fruit of life to physically live forever before he sinned. It only mentioned that after he sinned, and Romans 5 said sin brought death.

Then, and only then, would the ”temporal” bodies have been discarded and
changed to eternal.

They can never be eternal. Immortal means "never dying". That is not temporal. The things we see now are temporal only because they stand as they are AFTER SIN.

I believe there is now a place for those who are to be saved, and
another place for those who have rejected salvation. It is not “heaven” (eternity).

That is hypothetical.

[mfblume]

So, once again, where do YOU think we will exist immortally?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is a speculative answer. The bible never says immortal bodies do not need procreation for the sake of repopulation.
That again is speculation. Adam's body was immortal. He did not have to go the tree of life to live forever UNTIL AFTER HE SINNED. Eating the fruit was not said to allow him to live forever and after Adam sinned, and death was inflicted upon him due to sin.
You say the earth is not for the sons of God, but where does the bible say that?
When we died we are absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6-8 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Bodies, immortal or mortal alike, are earth-suits, really. If we are absent from body and present with the Lord upon death, we are in Heaven. That means we do not require bodies to be in heaven. Bodies are not made for heaven. Heaven is not a physical place where one needs a physical body to interact with it. You cannot show me a map of the physical universe and point at certain coordinates in the physical realm and say this is where Heaven is.
Eternal means no beginning nor any end. Not just no end like most people assume it means. So, we will never be eternal. We had a beginning. Only God is eternal. NOTHING ELSE. He gave us eternal Life when HIS LIFE was given to us. That alone is eternal.
But we shall live forevermore. So, what I mean is that we are only in heaven until the resurrection when we shall reunite with our immortalized bodies. And those bodies are made for the physical universe, not heaven. No where does the bible say we shall dwell in heaven forever. Yes, it's in dozens of hymns, but where is it in the bible? Where does the bible say our eternal home is heaven? No where. It is a false tradition. No biggie, really, but still false.
The only thing it says about forever is being with Jesus. 1 Thess 4:17. But it does not say Jesus is stuck in heaven forevermore. Wherever He is, there we will be. But it did not say it was heaven.
You say it is hypothetical to believe Adam was meant to remain and rule on earth forever and not die and go to heaven? It is hypothetical for you to say Adam's body was not immortal until sin! It is hypothetical for you to say immortal bodies are not involved in procreation due to lack of need for people who never die. All you said about that was hypothetical.
So what if God knew Lucifer would sin? In fact, technically, Lucifer is not even known to be the devil by what scripture says. That is hypothetical. Many claim he was a Babylonian king. I tend to agree Lucifer is the devil, but just saying. No where does it say that Adam was not intended to remain on earth forever because God knew he would sin. No where does it say God did not plan for Adam to remain on the earth in the Kingdom He put Adam in over the world because God knew man would sin and would later die and go to Heaven to remain forever.
In fact the most logical way to read scripture and make conclusions is to go by what it said, add nothing to it, and let what it said leave us with what was intended. And if God put Adam in the earth to rule over it to live forever on it, that is the will of God for us in the future, to get us back on track from where Adam fell.
Adam was not in heaven when he fell and requiring restoration for mankind to die and go to heaven and be there to continue what what God planned for humanity. Adam was on earth! Earth was made for MAN. You think God is going to discard the physical universe that makes man look like less than the size of an element of an atom in comparison, just because God planned it to be temporal since he foresaw man sinning?
If there is a physical new heaven and earth, the fact remains there is a physical to endure forever, even if it is NEW and NOT YET. And THAT is what our physical BODIES were made for.
Incorrect.
Nothing says Adam REQUIRED the fruit of life to physically live forever before he sinned. It only mentioned that after he sinned, and Romans 5 said sin brought death.
They can never be eternal. Immortal means "never dying". That is not temporal. The things we see now are temporal only because they stand as they are AFTER SIN.
That is hypothetical.

"Except it be given from above (by God), a man cannot see, perceive,
discern, or understand the kingdom of God."

Beloved, you went way overboard on this one!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

"Except it be given from above (by God), a man cannot see, perceive,
discern, or understand the kingdom of God."

Beloved, you went way overboard on this one!

Forgive me if I do not take your word for it. You say that without any substantiation for it.

In the meantime, please inform me as to where you feel our immortal bodies will spend eternity future.