Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellion?

[theoldpaths]

If one were to study church history, they would find out that as the last eyewitnesses of our Lord died off, false doctrine and false teachers went up.

The devil can't stand against strong leadership, so he waits until they die off or lose their influence.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul was aware of this and so are other strong leaders and will not cease to warn others so that they can be prepared. We are not ignorant of his devices.

As false doctrines and teachers abounded, there must be a way to tell who is false and who is not. Probably during that time, much of that was done by reputation and/or who they studied under, assuming that what they were taught by their teachers was what they themselves still believed and clung to. A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches. Another way was by what doctrine they held to. Jesus and Paul were all concerned about feeding His sheep so that they would know truth so that if someone came around teaching something different, they would be ashamed.

Nowadays, there are many oneness organizations that hold to the basic doctrines of belief in one God, Acts 2:38 salvation, Jesus Name baptism for the remission of sins, baptism of the Holy Ghost, and holiness.

If a traveling evangelist made himself available to a local church, probably that Pastor would ask for references - which speaks to his reputation and having a good name - and what basic doctrines he holds to. I can't imagine a 3 stepper Acts 2:38 church allowing a 1 stepper evangelist to come preach to some possible sinner, never been-born again people in his congregation.

So reputation and basic doctrines and holiness is probably what certain pastors look for nowadays in determining whether to let a traveling evangelist that they haven't heard of before, stand behind his pulpit.

Organizations can be a way of guaranteeing basic doctrines and some type of minimal agreed upon set of holiness standards. However, references would probably still need to be checked out to ensure that just because they believed in certain basic doctrines and minimal holiness at one point in time in the distant past, doesn't necessarily mean they still hold to those things now. While, yearly re-affirming a commitment to doctrine and holiness could be one way to ensure that, as we have seen in at least one organization, signing a person's name to re-affirm beliefs in basic doctrines and a minimal holiness standards doesn't mean anything to some. But perhaps a long time ago, if one held a "current" license with a certain organization, it would give some comfort in not having to do as much checking.

From Frank Bartleman's Azusa Street...

"A high standard was held up for a clean life. 'When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him" (Isa. 59:19)" - page 54

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

As false doctrines and teachers abounded, there must be a way to tell who is false and who is not. Probably during that time, much of that was done by reputation and/or who they studied under, assuming that what they were taught by their teachers was what they themselves still believed and clung to. A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches. Another way was by what doctrine they held to. Jesus and Paul were all concerned about feeding His sheep so that they would know truth so that if someone came around teaching something different, they would be ashamed.

Nowadays, there are many oneness organizations that hold to the basic doctrines of belief in one God, Acts 2:38 salvation, Jesus Name baptism for the remission of sins, baptism of the Holy Ghost, and holiness.

If a traveling evangelist made himself available to a local church, probably that Pastor would ask for references - which speaks to his reputation and having a good name - and what basic doctrines he holds to. I can't imagine a 3 stepper Acts 2:38 church allowing a 1 stepper evangelist to come preach to some possible sinner, never been-born again people in his congregation.

So reputation and basic doctrines and holiness is probably what certain pastors look for nowadays in determining whether to let a traveling evangelist that they haven't heard of before, stand behind his pulpit.

I completely agree, but shouldn't there be a doctrine for the structure of the Church? I'm not saying my pastor wouldn't allow a UPC preacher to speak in to the assembly, but shouldn't we try to help our brethren in orgs that are NOT authorized by Scripture, and admonish them to get back into the apostolic structure of the Church as outlined by the NT?

-Bro. Alex

[Revelationist]

I have to wonder what organization the Apostles were part of?

[All4one]

I think the original desciples/apostles had the Holy Ghost to lead them. That was organization led by God.

[Revelationist]

Originally Posted by All4one

I think the original desciples/apostles had the Holy Ghost to lead them. That was organization led by God.

It's to bad that we don't have that today.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by Revelationist

I have to wonder what organization the Apostles were part of?

Now, brother, don't you know they were CLEARLY UPC?!
Peter was the General Superintendent and Andrew was his Assistant General Superintendent (gotta keep things in the family). And then Thaddeus was the Secretary, John was the Treasurer and Paul led the Foreign Missions Department. In Acts 31 we see the first Sheaves for Christ rally, and boy did Matthew get a good offering that night with his various competitions he gave to the youth in the Jerusalem/Bethlehem District. And who can forget the first General Conference in Acts 32 where they rented out the arena in Antioch and they had all those meetings, workshops, offerings and whatnot? Oh good times, how the spirit moved then through all those programs and works of the flesh...

-Bro. Alex

[Revelationist]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

Now, brother, don't you know they were CLEARLY UPC?!
Peter was the General Superintendent and Andrew was his Assistant General Superintendent (gotta keep things in the family). And then Thaddeus was the Secretary, John was the Treasurer and Paul led the Foreign Missions Department. In Acts 31 we see the first Sheaves for Christ rally, and boy did Matthew get a good offering that night with his various competitions he gave to the youth in the Jerusalem/Bethlehem District. And who can forget the first General Conference in Acts 32 where they rented out the arena in Antioch and they had all those meetings, workshops, offerings and whatnot? Oh good times, how the spirit moved then through all those programs and works of the flesh...

-Bro. Alex

Peter Urshan, I see now... I should have put two and two together... : )

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

I completely agree, but shouldn't there be a doctrine for the structure of the Church? I'm not saying my pastor wouldn't allow a UPC preacher to speak in to the assembly, but shouldn't we try to help our brethren in orgs that are NOT authorized by Scripture, and admonish them to get back into the apostolic structure of the Church as outlined by the NT?

Concerning a structure for the church, the bible does state that apostles were first, then prophets, then teachers which implies that evangelists, pastors, and teachers all falls under the ministry category of "teachers".

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

When I read the NT, I see Paul being "over" all of the Gentile churches. Therefore I see an apostle as being over certain churches. That means that the Pastors of those churches have somebody over them. Concerning a structure of Apostles, I am not sure about that. We do know that when an issue came up that Paul and Barnabas, who were both apostles, did not know how to handle, they went to Jerusalem to have a conference with all of the apostles and elders to discuss and make a decision. Some have said that it seemed that at that conference, James was the leader and had the final word because what he suggested became the final rule. Perhaps tradition/history on James can shed some light on that.

Concerning "brethren" in org's not authorized by scripture - I take that as meaning "believers" who are not in truth. I think it would be good to look at what Jesus and the rest of the scriptures has to say about dealing with other religious bodies who are not in truth. They all deserve to hear the truth and be given a chance to accept it or deny it. I know I've witnessed to people in other religious organizations.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Revelationist

I have to wonder what organization the Apostles were part of?

Well, they were called Christians first at Antioch, but the scripture and history does record the early Catholics as being the first group to come out of the organization established by Jesus and start their own new thing.

As I discussed in a few messages before in this thread, after the early catholics departed from the faith and got their own teachers and started their own new "christian denomination" outside of the authority that Jesus said up, there must have been methods used to those who remained in the faith to determine if a traveling evangelist was of those inside the faith or of those who rebelled and started their own new thing. Scripture itself shows us some ways of determining which group a person may belong to.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Should every pastor and church be connected to a denomination?

Can there be true oversight without denominational affiliation?

Are independent churches operating in rebellion?

Was Martin Luther operating in rebellion?