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06-18-2007, 09:21 PM
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Thank you, Thank you very much
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 52
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The Definition of an Independent
The best that I have been able to come up with is: Doesnt want to pay dues. Do you think different?
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06-18-2007, 09:23 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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How much money are we talking about?? I have heard this before but have a hard time believing it.
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"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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06-19-2007, 06:11 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 336
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Self-supporting
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06-19-2007, 06:13 AM
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not needing a social group's blessing to spread the gospel...
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06-19-2007, 06:18 AM
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Aw come on you guys... the definition is quoted here all the time... Definition of an Independent: it ain't smoke if it ain't coming out of my chimney! LOL 
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06-19-2007, 06:49 AM
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Hello AFF!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amarillo, Tx.
Posts: 3,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philjones
Aw come on you guys... the definition is quoted here all the time... Definition of an Independent: it ain't smoke if it ain't coming out of my chimney! LOL |
 good one!
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06-19-2007, 03:28 PM
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arbitrary subjective label
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fifth Brick Ranch on the left.
Posts: 1,640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer
The best that I have been able to come up with is: Doesnt want to pay dues. Do you think different?
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Independents I've talked to compare district presbyterships to "having kings and lords over you."
That may be true, but when the Independent pastor goes ape-poo-on-the-brain (entertains deviant theology) his parishoners are without recourse. One guy losing it results in a whole church set adrift, if not worse.
At least with an organization, the lay leaders can petition the district. But it isn't as though a letter or two results in "district stormtroopers" evicting errant pastors from office and parsonage. UPC pastors serve according to the by-laws of their local assembly, and those by-laws can be modified to the benefit of a pastor.
It's more of an accountability group than tiers of management, at least what I've seen of it. And the good-ole'-boys club can come in to play with this and generate coverups and worse.
Neither system is perfect. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
But organizational affiliation offers greater assurance of doctrinal continuity to the congregation, admittedly at the expense of the "job security" of the pastor.
So my take on Independents is that they are railing against an inaccurate construct.
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Engineering solutions for theological problems.
Despite today's rising cost of living, it remains popular.
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston Churchill
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Sir Winston Churchill
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Benjamin Franklin
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06-19-2007, 03:48 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheltiedad
not needing a social group's blessing to spread the gospel...
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That's a start on a good definition!!!....Maybe it's someone not willing to play religious politics. Jesus Christ was very independent when he walked on earth!!
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God is so good!
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06-19-2007, 04:03 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 5,529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OP_Carl
Independents I've talked to compare district presbyterships to "having kings and lords over you."
That may be true, but when the Independent pastor goes ape-poo-on-the-brain (entertains deviant theology) his parishoners are without recourse. One guy losing it results in a whole church set adrift, if not worse.
At least with an organization, the lay leaders can petition the district. But it isn't as though a letter or two results in "district stormtroopers" evicting errant pastors from office and parsonage. UPC pastors serve according to the by-laws of their local assembly, and those by-laws can be modified to the benefit of a pastor.
It's more of an accountability group than tiers of management, at least what I've seen of it. And the good-ole'-boys club can come in to play with this and generate coverups and worse.
Neither system is perfect. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
But organizational affiliation offers greater assurance of doctrinal continuity to the congregation, admittedly at the expense of the "job security" of the pastor.
So my take on Independents is that they are railing against an inaccurate construct.
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Without recourse? Have their legs been cut off and only the errant Pastor pushes their wheelchair? Come on you can walk from any organization when the leadership goes gaga.
I do agree that "both have their strengths and weaknesses." 
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
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06-19-2007, 04:37 PM
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arbitrary subjective label
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fifth Brick Ranch on the left.
Posts: 1,640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevDWW
Without recourse? Have their legs been cut off and only the errant Pastor pushes their wheelchair? Come on you can walk from any organization when the leadership goes gaga.
I do agree that "both have their strengths and weaknesses." |
Yes, without recourse because Independent pastors often own or control the ownership of the church building. So, in the instance of an errant pastor, the congregation loses the blood, sweat, tears, time, materials and cash money they have invested in the church property.
Sure you can leave, but you're leaving close brothers and sisters, and a part of yourself, behind.
An organizationally affiliated church congregation can (theoretically) swap the errant pastor for a (hopefully) truth-loving new pastor in the same church and congregational setting.
Of course in reality pastoral changes are usually associated with mass departures, church splits, blatant nepotism, and other unpleasantness.
The situation offers no easy choices, and, like I said, both systems have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to this.
__________________
Engineering solutions for theological problems.
Despite today's rising cost of living, it remains popular.
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston Churchill
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Sir Winston Churchill
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Benjamin Franklin
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