Sinless Perfection

[Aquila]

Even conservative Reformed Christian ministers are talking about abandoning this "civil marriage" monstrosity...

THE MARRIAGE PLEDGE
https://www.firstthings.com/marriage-pledge

Oh, and for those who could never imagine a pastor ascribing to the notion of separating Christian marriage from civil marriage, check out the extensive list of pastors who made this pledge, and all the denominations represented.

It's common in the house church movement, because elders typically don't license with the state as ministers to begin with. The majority of house churches are virtually Caesar free, living in community, and ready to go dark when it all goes down.

There's even an quiet network of those opposed to the deep state who ascribe to this.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

My only question is why would someone do it that way, considering it means the same thing? Meaning either one you have to lawfully get divorced. So seems like a lot of work just to break the status quo. What's the real line of thinking here? Divorces cost you like 190 dollars online uncontested, why wouldn't someone just get regularly married? Unless they didn't want to be married?

For someone to do this they are trying to fall into some loophole. No pastor especially Apostolic pastor I have ever met would have a ceremony without signing a license. It would be very unethical.

Why do you feel compelled to FORCE couples to contract their unions with the civil government against their will, when Scripture, history, and growing Christian disdain for what government has done to civil marriage is on their side? Especially after witnessing the civil government pass statutes that undermine marriage and legally redefine marriage to the point of mockery?

[houston]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

My only question is why would someone do it that way, considering it means the same thing? Meaning either one you have to lawfully get divorced. So seems like a lot of work just to break the status quo. What's the real line of thinking here? Divorces cost you like 190 dollars online uncontested, why wouldn't someone just get regularly married? Unless they didn't want to be married?

For someone to do this they are trying to fall into some loophole. No pastor especially Apostolic pastor I have ever met would have a ceremony without signing a license. It would be very unethical.

Not relevant. At all. Feelings don’t matter. You previously stated that they had to go about the law. This is law.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Even conservative Reformed Christian ministers are talking about abandoning this "civil marriage" monstrosity...

THE MARRIAGE PLEDGE
https://www.firstthings.com/marriage-pledge

Oh, and for those who could never imagine a pastor ascribing to the notion of separating Christian marriage from civil marriage, check out the extensive list of pastors who made this pledge, and all the denominations represented.

It's common in the house church movement, because elders typically don't license with the state as ministers to begin with.

There's even an quiet network of those opposed to the deep state who ascribe to this.

You must have missed the part of the pledge where they condemn co-habitation.

I don't care if one chooses to not have a civil marriage. But shacking up and calling it marriage is not Biblical.

I wonder how much of this is you not wanting state involvement vs you just wanting an easy way out if things go south. A Republican is in the WH after all.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

You must have missed the part of the pledge where they condemn co-habitation.

I don't care if one chooses to not have a civil marriage. But shacking up and calling it marriage is not Biblical.

I wonder how much of this is you not wanting state involvement vs you just wanting an easy way out if things go south. A Republican is in the WH after all.

I don't believe in mere cohabitation either. You just said that you didn't care if a couple doesn't have a civil marriage.

We had a Quaker style ceremony (self-uniting). An elder (non-licenced) was present and offered blessing. We have durable and medical powers of attorney. We have wills. We even have a notorized agreement of property securing assets that cannot be transferred upon the breakup of our union to legally establish exclusive ownership.

How are we just shacking up?

But you're right about one thing. Neither of us want to pay a couple thousand dollars in attorneys fees and court costs, with spousal support tacked on, to get rid of the other should they get a case of stupid. Having been through expensive divorces, we both see it as taking personal responsibility, and being smarter than the masses running to contract their unions with Caesar.

[votivesoul]

Brethren, let us not rehash in Michael's thread, this discussion about marriages, as there is a perfectly good thread for that, as n_david showed when he provided a link to that very thread. Additionally, there is a portion of the board devoted specifically to marriage. That is the correct location for continuing this discussion.

Let us not derail this thread any longer, because the topic at hand is very important, and rabbit trails only lead to rabbit holes, and that will signify the end of this thread.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I agree.

But what does it mean to "keep the law perfectly"???

Would this mean that EB needs to grow a beard? Does it require circumcision? Must we not eat pork?

Can we define what it means to "keep the law perfectly" so that we can confront legalistic questions like those above?

Are you asking these things rhetorically, for the sake of continuing the discussion, academically, that is, or because you actually do not know?

If it happens that you do not know, I suggest the following, which happens to be the same answer if you are merely discussing these things academically:

If you have the Spirit of the Anointed One united to your spirit, and the Son of God has been revealed in you by the Spirit of Prophecy, that means the Spirit of Truth and Bishop and Shepherd of your soul is active and participant in your life on a permanent basis, unless you apostatize and become reprobate.

You also have access to the very same Bibles as the rest of us. So, instead of coming to me, or Esaias, or Michael, or the Evangelist, or anyone else for that matter, here's the better way:

Jesus, being alive and real and available, is your Rabbi. There is nothing in the word of God that He does not understand or cannot explain. But you must have faith to receive it, not resist it in your flesh, and not compromise on His teachings. When you can yield to that, Jesus Himself will teach you everything you need to know about keeping the law perfectly, because He Himself kept the law perfectly.

Stop looking for lists and ways to compartmentalize the commandments of God into sufficiently easy to obey, small packages. You'll miss the forest for the trees that way. Rather, let Jesus elevate your understanding, give you a bird's eye view of the whole, so you can see what He sees the way He sees and you can figure out, that if your roles were reversed, and He was you, and you were Him, what He would do in your place, and what you would expect and even demand of Him as He walked before you.

Once you have the mind of Christ on these things, all you can do is obey Him. And if you are in full compliance and obedient to Christ, you are keeping the law of God perfectly, because you are then walking in His steps, walking just as He walked, and He walked in a way that not once displeased the Father by transgressing against Him.

That is what you must do. There is no debate on this. At the end of it all, sure, get some opinions and ideas and inspiration from others whom you trust and believe have a good sense of the word of God and who the Messiah is and what that Messiah wants from and for His people, but, then, at the end of the day, whatever you've gleaned from others doesn't matter. To your own Master you rise or fall.

At the Judgment Seat, there is no "Well, Jesus, at AFF I learned that I was supposed to believe X, Y, and Z because there was this thread about sinless perfection and...". That's not going to cut it. So, no more lists and suggestions of ideas that others believe this or that. Who cares? What does Jesus say? That's all that matters.

And if you can't figure that out, He's the One you need to be asking.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So for 30 some odd pages Tequila O'Neil tried to run the court screaming "only hypocrites promote deliverance from sin" and now at the last quarter he's switching jerseys and claiming sinless perfection is necessary... while tossing out all the disclaimers that allow him to brag online about eating Wheaties in the buff with Bruce Jenner cheering him on.

Good grief.

His rhetoric is getting old, and his act is as worn out as Rachel Ron’s wig.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Are you asking these things rhetorically, for the sake of continuing the discussion, academically, that is, or because you actually do not know?

If it happens that you do not know, I suggest the following, which happens to be the same answer if you are merely discussing these things academically:

If you have the Spirit of the Anointed One united to your spirit, and the Son of God has been revealed in you by the Spirit of Prophecy, that means the Spirit of Truth and Bishop and Shepherd of your soul is active and participant in your life on a permanent basis, unless you apostatize and become reprobate.

You also have access to the very same Bibles as the rest of us. So, instead of coming to me, or Esaias, or Michael, or the Evangelist, or anyone else for that matter, here's the better way:

Good post.

Shame is that Aquila doesn’t care.

He doesn’t answer anything posed to him. He is no longer having a discussion, because he doesn’t want what was said to haunt him. He has issues, quite a bit. Not as many as Rachel Ralph but they're building. Yet, let’s look at some irony. A cross dresser comes to a forum posing as an Apostolic woman. Not like we haven’t had this before, but the first one to share their picture from giddy up. Aquila poses as a Christian, occasionally getting a thumbs up or high five. Yet, for the most part he maintains his shape shifting posture. People who have high fived him lift an eyebrow and scratch their head. Wondering, "hey did I just read that?" Yes you most certainly did. As Esaias has mentioned, Aquila changes jerseys half way through the thread. This forum is actually a nail in his coffin. Because when you get as bad that you can throw on a wig, and post under Jesus name in delusion acting like something you’re not. Your issues are far greater than a bowl of Apple Jacks while naked in ashes.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Are you asking these things rhetorically, for the sake of continuing the discussion, academically, that is, or because you actually do not know?

If it happens that you do not know, I suggest the following, which happens to be the same answer if you are merely discussing these things academically:

If you have the Spirit of the Anointed One united to your spirit, and the Son of God has been revealed in you by the Spirit of Prophecy, that means the Spirit of Truth and Bishop and Shepherd of your soul is active and participant in your life on a permanent basis, unless you apostatize and become reprobate.

You also have access to the very same Bibles as the rest of us. So, instead of coming to me, or Esaias, or Michael, or the Evangelist, or anyone else for that matter, here's the better way:

Jesus, being alive and real and available, is your Rabbi. There is nothing in the word of God that He does not understand or cannot explain. But you must have faith to receive it, not resist it in your flesh, and not compromise on His teachings. When you can yield to that, Jesus Himself will teach you everything you need to know about keeping the law perfectly, because He Himself kept the law perfectly.

Stop looking for lists and ways to compartmentalize the commandments of God into sufficiently easy to obey, small packages. You'll miss the forest for the trees that way. Rather, let Jesus elevate your understanding, give you a bird's eye view of the whole, so you can see what He sees the way He sees and you can figure out, that if your roles were reversed, and He was you, and you were Him, what He would do in your place, and what you would expect and even demand of Him as He walked before you.

Once you have the mind of Christ on these things, all you can do is obey Him. And if you are in full compliance and obedient to Christ, you are keeping the law of God perfectly, because you are then walking in His steps, walking just as He walked, and He walked in a way that not once displeased the Father by transgressing against Him.

That is what you must do. There is no debate on this. At the end of it all, sure, get some opinions and ideas and inspiration from others whom you trust and believe have a good sense of the word of God and who the Messiah is and what that Messiah wants from and for His people, but, then, at the end of the day, whatever you've gleaned from others doesn't matter. To your own Master you rise or fall.

At the Judgment Seat, there is no "Well, Jesus, at AFF I learned that I was supposed to believe X, Y, and Z because there was this thread about sinless perfection and...". That's not going to cut it. So, no more lists and suggestions of ideas that others believe this or that. Who cares? What does Jesus say? That's all that matters.

And if you can't figure that out, He's the One you need to be asking.

The questions are just probing to gain clarity of another's position.

Those who profess that sinless perfection is maintained by not transgressing the Law actually beg the questions that come along with that position. For example...

If one must not transgress the law to be sinlessly perfect... must one keep the 7th day Sabbath to be sinlessly perfect?

The question of dozens of other laws then come to mind. So far, none of those who profess to hold this position have clarified, or been able to present, what laws they are talking about when they say that sinless perfection is not transgressing the law. And if it is necessary for salvation according to their position... this question is of the utmost importance.

So, they have to present what laws or body of laws they are referring to or it's like a traffic sign with a posted speed limit of "Guess".

I propose that sinlessness perfection isn't attained through avoiding the transgression of the law. It's something deeper, more spiritual, that has to do with grace, a new nature, and higher principles that go beyond the letter of the law.

So, for those who would argue that being sinlessly perfect means not transgressing against the law, what about the Sabbath? Must one keep the 7th day Sabbath?

I predict, we'll see answers that differ on this.

And that is important. Because it demonstrates how subjective, and prone to human opinion, the position is. That leaves GRACE as the only objective spiritual reality to be embraced. A grace that calls us beyond law keeping to attain perfection.

I'm not asking because I don't know what to believe. I know what I believe. I'm asking questions that will show the weakness in their position. And that my dear brother is why they'd rather NOT answer the question... and digress into personal insults, judgments, and condemnations.

It's just a discussion. But when I ask the questions regarding their position... they can't stand and deliver. lol So, they go personal.

And... I'm curious. As an Admin... why do you let them go so personal. I'm only one man. I have attack dogs hanging from my arms and legs right now. Help me out here. LOL