Is the UPC a Den of Incest (Growth Within)?

[chosenbyone]

Originally Posted by vrblackwell

It is a fact that the UPC has not grown within the USA very much over the last 10 to 20 years. However, there are churches that cannot be thrown into that category. The church i am attending in Springfield has people receiving the HG and being baptized every week. Wednesday night 12 were baptized in Jesus name. I have only been there since January and have been impressed.

I am sure there are many more that are growing. But the org as a whole has not been growing. That is why a new church growth campaign has been launched recently called global impact.

The fact is, the churches that are willing to change and step out of the box will see souls saved. I personally believe it starts by trying to stop growing churches and personal kingdoms and by trying instead to grow people.

For so long we have tried to bring people in and convert them to a culture instead of going out and leading them to a savior. JMHO

Excellent post!

[vrblackwell]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

VB, your point is well taken, but still does not mean there isn't new blood in the organization. The activity through the back door is further evidence of this.

PS It's great to see you posting more!

Its funny you said this. I was just getting a drink and thinking about this. There are many people being saved in our churches. What I have seen is that many will receive the HG and have trouble with the standards. Therefore, they find churches that believe in the infilling of the HG but do not have a strict standard and go to them. This happens a lot.

What I found in pastoring was that it was very hard for a women who grew up wearing and believing that there was such a thing as women's pants to be told that there is no such thing. Or to be told that they cannot cut their hair and so on.

I don't think sometimes that we who grew up in this belief really understand how much a typical woman must change to fit into a typical UPC church. We really don't understand how dramatic this can be to a women who has never lived this way.

Disclaimer" I am not trying to tear down nor build up any beliefs in this post, just stating what I have observed.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by vrblackwell

Its funny you said this. I was just getting a drink and thinking about this. There are many people being saved in our churches. What I have seen is that many will receive the HG and have trouble with the standards. Therefore, they find churches that believe in the infilling of the HG but do not have a strict standard and go to them. This happens a lot.

What I found in pastoring was that it was very hard for a women who grew up wearing and believing that there was such a thing as women's pants to be told that there is no such thing. Or to be told that they cannot cut their hair and so on.

I don't think sometimes that we who grew up in this belief really understand how much a typical woman must change to fit into a typical UPC church. We really don't understand how dramatic this can be to a women who has never lived this way.

Disclaimer" I am not trying to tear down nor build up any beliefs in this post, just stating what I have observed.

My gosh, Verlon! So true. I got in the UPC when I was 26 years old. It has been a huge adjustment, to say the least. You hit that right on!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jekyll

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=183



What do you think?

What do I think? I think that was the most ridiculous thing I've heard a grown man say.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

VB, your point is well taken, but still does not mean there isn't new blood in the organization. The activity through the back door is further evidence of this.


PS It's great to see you posting more!

I found the timing of this interesting as well. I just got off the phone with a young minister and we were discussing the fact that no excels at evangelism like the Apostolics, and yet often no one does a worse job of discipling.

The churches which are growing have figured out how to do both. Personally I don't believe it's as attached to standards (either too strict or lack of) as many here seem to feel.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by vrblackwell

Its funny you said this. I was just getting a drink and thinking about this. There are many people being saved in our churches. What I have seen is that many will receive the HG and have trouble with the standards. Therefore, they find churches that believe in the infilling of the HG but do not have a strict standard and go to them. This happens a lot.

What I found in pastoring was that it was very hard for a women who grew up wearing and believing that there was such a thing as women's pants to be told that there is no such thing. Or to be told that they cannot cut their hair and so on.

I don't think sometimes that we who grew up in this belief really understand how much a typical woman must change to fit into a typical UPC church. We really don't understand how dramatic this can be to a women who has never lived this way.

Disclaimer" I am not trying to tear down nor build up any beliefs in this post, just stating what I have observed.

You can PM me about the drinking if you need support.

Yes, I too can see some have difficulty adapting to our standards on women's facial hair. TIC

Here is the one thing that gives me pause concerning your theory... If women are leaving in droves and can't adapt to standards etc., why is it that women outnumber the men 2-1 in most of our churches?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

I found the timing of this interesting as well. I just got off the phone with a young minister and we were discussing the fact that no excels at evangelism like the Apostolics, and yet often no one does a worse job of discipling.

The churches which are growing have figured out how to do both. Personally I don't believe it's as attached to standards (either too strict of lack of) as many here seem to feel.

Now we are getting somewhere.... I feel it is at least in part due to a leader feeling he can or should micro-manage the details of everyones life. This may include standards, but it is a mindset rather than simply the level of conservativeness.

PS There are plenty of Liberal churches closing their doors all the time.

[vrblackwell]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

You can PM me about the drinking if you need support.

Yes, I too can see some have difficulty adapting to our standards on women's facial hair. TIC

Here is the one thing that gives me pause concerning your theory... If women are leaving in droves and can't adapt to standards etc., why is it that women outnumber the men 2-1 in most of our churches?

I believe you will find that ratio in any church.

Could be due to the fact that women give births to more girls then boys.

[SDG]

What does sharing common spiritual DNA do to the offspring?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by vrblackwell

I believe you will find that ratio in any church.

Could be due to the fact that women give births to more girls then boys.

Uh, I can't really argue that one...

Scotch on the Rocks please.