Original Sin

[Esaias]

It is specifically said these things proceed from the heart, not from "the nature".

When a person is born again they are given a new heart, are they not? And if that is the "fallen nature" then the fallen nature is removed at conversion as the believer now has a new heart.

I read an old holiness sermon one time, by a Wesleyan no less, titled "Much that is called sanctification today is really justification".

There is no verse that says mankind are born with a SIN NATURE, or that anyone is GUILTY of Adam's sin. The bible says DEATH passed upon all men because all have sinned. It also says by Adam came death (not a sin nature).

Sin is universal, but not because men are UNABLE to obey God, but because they are UNWILLING. That is why sin is a CRIME rather than an unfortunate handicap. That is why sinners are REBELS and not just poor misfortunate ones, unable to do or be anything BUT sin.

That is why sinners are GUILTY, and without excuse.

What greater excuse could a sinner have than to say "I literally was forced to sin by the sin nature"? But sinners are without excuse.

Guilt means doing what you ought not to have done, or not doing what you ought to have done. But nobody can be obligated to do what they positively CANNOT BY NATURAL INHERENT INABILITY do, anymore than that they should be OBLIGATED to sprout wings and fly through the air.

Tell your 6 year old son "you OUGHT to be able to quote all of Shakespeare by heart" and when he fails to do it then GET ANGRY WITH HIM and PUNISH HIM, nay DISINHERIT HIM and you will be just as righteous as the god promoted by the doctrine of "original inherited sin".

[Lafon]

It is specifically said these things proceed from the heart, not from "the nature".

When a person is born again they are given a new heart, are they not? And if that is the "fallen nature" then the fallen nature is removed at conversion as the believer now has a new heart.

And just what is the "heart" of man? The "blood pump" which lies near the center of our chest? Of course not! "Heart" is generally used as a medical term to refer to that organ of man's body which serves the function of distributing Oxygen generated blood throughout the body while forcing the Oxygen depleted blood back to the lungs to be re-oxygenated. However, this is NOT what the word "heart" is referring to in the language of the Scriptures! Rather it is the "mind" or "soul" of man. This fact can be seen in the following words of our Lord Himself, who used three different words to describe man's heart when responding to the inquiry regarding the greatest commandment of all:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind" (Matthew 22:37).

Moreover, Christ Jesus disclosed what the "heart" of man is when responding to certain wicked statements made to Him by the Pharisees, for He told them that it is: "... out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things" (Matthew 12:34-35). So I ask, does any of the knowledge which we possess reside in the "blood pump" located near the center of our chest? Of course not! Knowledge resides in our mind, or brain, for it is there that the invisible soul of man also resides (as well as the Spirit in those who have received it).

Please take special note of the manner in which Solomon acquired knowledge (remember, he was the man whom God promised to make the wisest king Israel had ever known). Solomon wrote in the following to disclose HOW he became so wise, saying, "And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: ..... I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:" (see Ecclesiastes 1:17 & 7:25). We should recognize by these words that Solomon acquired knowledge by applying his mind (brain, or soul) to learn them! And it is the same for you and I!

As can be seen, its extremely important to know what we are talking about when we make statements concerning the "heart" of man.

Secondly, there are NO scriptural passages which state that "when a person is born again they are given a new heart." In fact, the writer of Romans stated quite the opposite: "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Romans 12:2). This "renewing of the mind" is achieved through prayer, fasting, and study of the writings of the Scriptures, as Paul instructed Timothy, saying, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Timothy 2:15).

Oh yes, I know. it is written in Ezekiel 36:26 that God told Israel, saying, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." But the question must be in what manner is this to be achieved. By simply "filling" their minds with all of the knowledge that Solomon, as well as you and I, have had to acquire through study? Of course not! For that would be displaying a "respect of persons," and as we well know, this is something that God CANNOT do! So how does Israel acquire this "new heart" that God promises them? Well, it must come by way of the same thing we have been required to do, that is, their study of His word. And when He returns to this earth at the end of the present age to dwell in their midst for 1,000 years, then there can be little doubt that they will be more than eager to do just that!

There is no verse that says mankind are born with a SIN NATURE, or that anyone is GUILTY of Adam's sin. The bible says DEATH passed upon all men because all have sinned. It also says by Adam came death (not a sin nature).

Sin is universal, but not because men are UNABLE to obey God, but because they are UNWILLING. That is why sin is a CRIME rather than an unfortunate handicap. That is why sinners are REBELS and not just poor misfortunate ones, unable to do or be anything BUT sin.

That is why sinners are GUILTY, and without excuse.

While I agree, in part, with the things Luke wrote (Post #180), although I do NOT think we carry the burden of an "original sin," per se, for that first act of willful disobedience involved the eating of the forbidden fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil," a single tree that was present in the garden at Eden which was sealed that no man might enter when God caused Adam and Eve to be removed, nevertheless I do embrace the belief that we all are born with the propensity to sin.

(BTW, Luke, those are some excellent scriptural passages you tendered in support of your contention that we're all born with the propensity to sin.)

I believe this because of that principle which God established in the beginning, called the "seed." God decreed that all "seeds" would reproduce "after their own kind" (see Genesis 1:11-12), and because the "seed" of human flesh was in the body of Adam, then when that body was cursed of God at that moment He imposed the judgment of death upon it, Adam's "seed" became corrupt. As a consequence all human flesh from that moment until now has inherited that same propensity to sin which Adam possessed and exercised.

And while there might not be a particular scripture verse which states, in explicit or even implicit terms, that "mankind was born with a sin nature," we each did inherit the propensity to sin because we are of Adam's corrupt "seed." And the words of Solomon serve to remind me of why we each possess the propensity to sin: Ecclesiastes 8:11 advises us that this is "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." Oh well! God didn't strike me dead when I told that "little white lie," so He must not have thought it was all that bad! Nonsense! It is because God is not willing that any should perish, therefore His patience while awaiting for us to repent is so that we might be saved. It is NOT because He "winks" at all of our "little white lies"!

Proverbs 25:2 ..... It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It is specifically said these things proceed from the heart, not from "the nature".

When a person is born again they are given a new heart, are they not? And if that is the "fallen nature" then the fallen nature is removed at conversion as the believer now has a new heart.

Sin is still in our flesh after salvation. It is a pull to do wrong. If left unattended, we will sin.

[Luke]

Another passage that illustrates the passing of the sin nature from Adam to us is:

Heb.7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sin is still in our flesh after salvation. It is a pull to do wrong. If left unattended, we will sin.

Yes: the propensity to sin is in our flesh. That is the portion which we, as Christians,
must deal with. "...that you present your bodies a living sacrifice...". The Lord has
already done everything that meets our needs for salvation. Our objective is "...bringing
into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; and having in readiness to
revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Yes: the propensity to sin is in our flesh. That is the portion which we, as Christians,
must deal with. "...that you present your bodies a living sacrifice...". The Lord has
already done everything that meets our needs for salvation. Our objective is "...bringing
into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; and having in readiness to
revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."

Amen.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It is specifically said these things proceed from the heart, not from "the nature"...DISINHERIT HIM and you will be just as righteous as the god promoted by the doctrine of "original inherited sin".

and amen.

[mfblume]

This was never addressed.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Getting back to more about what this thread is about...

Some say Adam's crooked nature alone is passed down to us but that we are not dying because of Adam's sin as though his transgression was ours. If Adam's transgression was not counted as ours, and we don't die because of Adam's sin, then the opposite in Christ must be considered. This makes Christ the one whose ACT DOES NOT MAKE US RIGHTEOUS. If Adam's act did not make us sinners, then the opposite must be true with Christ. His act did not make us righteous and we have to work up our own righteousness! And we know that is not true. Righteousness is a blessed gift just as sin was a cursed gift. We earned neither of them.

So, if anyone here believes you're only a sinner because YOU personally sinned, then by the same token you have to believe you make yourself righteous to be saved, and you are involved in salvation by works. The concept of Christ's salvation work in making us righteous is said to be the opposite of what Adam did in Romans 5. That's what Romans 5 is about.

[Luke]

That last post that you reposted was great bro blume. I agree that after salvation we retain our sin nature and it does pull us toward sin

Gal. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

However fun as it has been to agree with all of y'all I will go a step farther and say that we can be made free from our sin nature while we are alive on earth (before death or glorification). I do not believe that we must live all of our life with a sinful adamic nature but we can be made free from it and it be removed.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

2 Peter 1: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

James 4: 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Luke

That last post that you reposted was great bro blume. I agree that after salvation we retain our sin nature and it does pull us toward sin

Gal. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

However fun as it has been to agree with all of y'all I will go a step farther and say that we can be made free from our sin nature while we are alive on earth (before death or glorification). I do not believe that we must live all of our life with a sinful adamic nature but we can be made free from it and it be removed.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

2 Peter 1: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

James 4: 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

I agree we can live free of its dominance. It will still be in us, though, I believe. But so long as we walk after the Spirit we are overriding its effect.s As soon as we cease walking after the Spirit we will succumb again.

I believe Romans 8:2 goes hand in hand with Gal 5:16

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.