Sinless Perfection

[Michael The Disciple]

So, while some argue that they depend upon grace, and others argue that they believe in sinless perfection, none of us seem to be more perfect than any other and our practice is essentially the same.

That's why I just say that I believe in God's grace. I don't even want to give the mere impression that I feel more perfect than anyone else. But that's just me.

Ok so your saying that those who at least believe in sinless perfection live no different than those who believe its impossible to cease from sin.

So does that prove Jesus does not expect his people to be perfect? Absolutely not! If your observation is true it just demonstrates that another generation of Christians have failed God. Like the generation before them who failed God they will one day be cast into the lake of fire.

YAH tries to warn his people. He shows them his way but if they refuse to walk in it he will refuse to save them from Hell.

Rev 2:11

11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Jesus is very patient in his desire for a perfect bride. We should not expect his coming as long as no one on Earth is perfect. Why should he come back and accept a group of people whose motto is "Christians arent perfect just forgiven!"

He will continue to wait until some of those he has baptized with his Spirit bear the fruit he desires.

James 5:1

7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

No one should allow themselves to be deceived into believing todays false teachers that their final destination will be in the arms of Jesus if they dont overcome. Far from it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

Man, I have been away for weeks.... still the same couple people arguing with each other. We should rename this the EB and Aquila show. EB you are still the arrogant know it all about any subject that is brought up and Aquila your post are BORING!!!

Sorry bro. LOL

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok so your saying that those who at least believe in sinless perfection live no different than those who believe its impossible to cease from sin.

No. I'm not even considering those who believe it is impossible to cease from sin.

I believe that it is possible to cease from sin. There are sins I've struggled with that I've been able to overcome and cease.

I'm only comparing those who believe that grace affords the covering and power necessary to work through these sins that we might overcome them.

Where we on the empowering grace side tend to believe is that the flesh is still fallen, has a carnal and sinful nature, and presents a life long battle, if not disciplined.

And while we believe it is possible to cease sinning, due to the fallen nature of the flesh, we embrace the reality that the flesh may one day best us and we sin again. In which case, we have an advocate with the Father, and confessing such sin and putting on the mind of Christ to overcome it will be necessary. So, we don't use the words "sinless perfection". As long as there is an unregenerated part of me, I can't claim absolute perfection in and of myself. I can only claim perfection in the shadow of the cross. Christ alone is my perfection, righteousness, and holiness.

So does that prove Jesus does not expect his people to be perfect? Absolutely not! If your observation is true it just demonstrates that another generation of Christians have failed God. Like the generation before them who failed God they will one day be cast into the lake of fire.

If you're perfect, then you can't sin again. Because perfection wouldn't ever desire to, nor be capable of sinning again. So, every time you sin, it flies in the face of this doctrine. And if you claim all you have to do is confess and repent of the sin, perfection wouldn't need to repent now, would it? So, I see it as a misnomer. You're "holiness". You believe in living a holy and overcoming life. However, you'll never argue that you won't sin again, nor that you can't sin again. And so, though you claim "sinless perfection" in name, it's in name only.

YAH tries to warn his people. He shows them his way but if they refuse to walk in it he will refuse to save them from Hell.

Since I don't necessarily believe this the way you're presenting it, it doesn't matter to me what you believe. However, it should matter to you. Because if YOU sin again, you've proven that you're not perfect. And if you claim perfection, but leave room for being imperfect, how can you truly be perfect? So, perfection is indeed required of you. For with what measure we judge is the measure we must meet. If you claim perfection... you must be perfect. But not perfect on your terms, perfect on God's terms. So, good luck.

[QUOTERev 2:11
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.[/QUOTE]

Ummm… let's have some context...

Revelation 2:8-11 King James Version (KJV)
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

What the church of Smyrna was to overcome is noted. They were to be thrown into prison, their faith tried through persecution, they were to suffer tribulation, and they were admonished to be faithful unto death (martyrdom). And for this, they would receive a crown of life. And so, these are the things Jesus admonishes them to overcome and persevere in.

Jesus is very patient in his desire for a perfect bride. We should not expect his coming as long as no one on Earth is perfect. Why should he come back and accept a group of people whose motto is "Christians arent perfect just forgiven!

Are you perfect? Or are you the one holding back Christ's return? LOL

He will continue to wait until some of those he has baptized with his Spirit bear the fruit he desires.

James 5:1

7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

I believe the return will take place on an appointed day in an appointed hour. That's set. We just don't know the day nor hour. However, until then, God is indeed patient and merciful, as He works with us and awaits the fruit of the first ear of Christians and the last era of Christians.

No one should allow themselves to be deceived into believing todays false teachers that their final destination will be in the arms of Jesus if they dont overcome. Far from it.

I am crucified with Christ, and yet I live. Not I, but Christ who lives within me. I've already overcome. I'm already reckoned as being dead to the law. I've even been buried in His name.

We overcome. But we overcome through Christ, not through performance. That isn't to say that we do not overcome sin. But we overcome sin by reckoning with the reality that we're already crucified with Christ, dead and buried. We're dead to the sin, dead to the law, dead to the world. When this reality sets in, overcoming the flesh comes naturally. Because our identity is in Christ. When we realize this, truly realize this, we cease from sin, manifesting the spiritual reality of our current state.

But when these folks say we don't cease from sin, or that we sin every day, I've learned that they count everything including having a bad attitude with one's spouse, speeding, and even being mouthy a sin. In a way, their notion of perfection is higher than most who I've known who embrace the sinless perfection doctrine. For example, one poster here noted several things he didn't believe were sin. But those who say we sin every day believe those things are sin. Therefore, their notion of perfection is clearly higher than his. lol

Everyone would agree that lying, murder, adultery, coveting, idolatry, etc. are sins. The debate rests in what the sinless perfectionists argue are not sin vs. what those who profess that we sin every day are sin. Think about it, if someone believed breathing were a sin, they'd argue that we sin 30 to 60 times a minute!

Neither side of the debate would argue that the bigger sins I mentioned above are sin. And even those who believe we sin every day don't believe in committing those sins, because they come at a great cost. So, at the end of the day, those who believe the little sins (like having a bad attitude, speeding, eating unhealthy, jesting) are indeed sin admit that they do these things every day. The sinless perfectionist also does these very same things every day. Only, the sinless perfectionist will argue that they aren't sin. lol

When the dust settles average level of righteousness isn't all that different. It's just one side refuses to see some things as sin... while the other does.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

Man, I have been away for weeks.... still the same couple people arguing with each other. We should rename this the EB and Aquila show. EB you are still the arrogant know it all about any subject that is brought up and Aquila your post are BORING!!!

Joe, arrogant, because I know more than you do?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, at the end of the day, those who believe the little sins (like having a bad attitude, speeding, eating unhealthy, jesting) are indeed sin admit that they do these things every day.

Aquila where is eating unhealthy found in the Bible? You posted it is INDEED SIN. So, post the scripture. Gluttony is a sin, nothing about eating unhealthy.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

One's inner being is the inner man, one's spirit.

Is that what you were told? Look even the dictionary can figure it out, in·ner man, noun, a man's soul or mind. As, "the complexities of the inner man."

Originally Posted by Aquila

The other law in our members, the law of sin, is the fleshly, carnal, sin nature

Like I said, religion you aren't too good at, but a politician excellent. You are a flipping flopping fool. Bro, nature is an inner force (such as instinct, appetite, desire) or the sum of such forces in an individual. They stem from your thinking mind, sinful nature would be the instinct, appetite, and desire to do the opposite of what God wants. Meaning not His will, but your own will be done. Too simple for you? But, don't forget all the scriptures concerning eating unhealthy.

Originally Posted by Aquila

that calls us to seek carnal and sinful pleasures to satisfy the desires of the flesh.

Calls us? How Chris? Does it text you? Do you hear it when you are all alone at home? "Chris, this is your sin nature talking" Bro, the Bible tells us to walk in the light as He is in the light. God said He takes out the stony heart, and replaces it with one of flesh? So, I guess flesh is good in the OT, concerning hearts. How many people actually have physically stone hearts? Where in the Bible does it say that it calls us? For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. ESV, and NLT, also do a nice job making it even more clear. Chris, it's all in your head, it is the thoughts, and allowing your thoughts to either be your own, and giving into them. Or Jesus' and giving in to Him. Bro, I have had this discussion with you many times before. You struggle because you give up, and allow Chris to do this on his own. Therefore you hold to a teaching which claims high fructose corn syrup is sin.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The term "flesh" isn't only speaking to the carnal and natural desires of the body, but it is also used to describe the carnal mind that wills to satisfy the desires of the body.

Bro, you are so confused. So, let's see, your body does things independently of your mind? If your girlfriend caught you eating breakfast with another woman, would you tell her that it was your body's fault? Chris, Chris..,Chris!
That's baloney fella, the mind is what Romans explains, and Paul wrote Romans. The law of the mind, is which ruled and reigned. You need to learn how to read, before you go on your next teaching expedition.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The law of the mind that Paul is talking about here is the divine nature of the mind of Christ.

Again, mind. Sorry Chris, move on. Find another thread, preferably one where you can entertain Joe Bandy. When he comes here, he is lonely.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The divine nature abiding in us as new creatures calls us to obey the indwelling Holy Spirit by living a holy and righteous life.

Bro, you posted it, the mind of Christ, therefore you walk in the light as He is in the light. John 15:15, 1 Corinthians 2:16, Philippians 2:5, Matthew 11:29, when Jesus said He was humble in heart? Was He talking about the muscle blood pump in His chest?

Originally Posted by Aquila

It is through the mind of Christ that the carnal mind is overcome and one finds the power and will to deny the desires of the flesh and live above sin.

Bro, it is the mind, fleshly, carnal, natural, Adamic, sinful, immature, (in your case high fructose corn syrup devouring) mind. Sorry, laddie boy, but our bodies don't do things outside of our mind, unless you have some sort of medical condition. Other than that, if you are looking at porn on the internet it isn't any fault of your fingers typing, or clicking the mouse across the pad. It isn't the fault of your eyes, it is the fault of your own human will ruling your dirty mind.

Originally Posted by Aquila

We are not to allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies by giving in to the desires of the flesh, but we are to walk in the spirit and deny the flesh by surrendering to the new nature provided by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Joe Bandy is right, Chris, you not only bore him, but you also bore me, seriously. Chris, sinful mind, carnal mind, sinful gummy bear mind, good God from Zion!!!!!

Now, be a good chap, and hurry along and find all the scriptures where Jesus, and Paul the apostle taught that eating unhealthy is sinful.

I didn't know you are our resident Yule Gibbons, and Paul Bragg?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Aquila where is eating unhealthy found in the Bible? You posted it is INDEED SIN. So, post the scripture. Gluttony is a sin, nothing about eating unhealthy.

This was addressed in post #13.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Like I said, religion you aren't too good at, but a politician excellent. You are a flipping flopping fool.

So much for sinless perfection....

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Ephesians 4:26
Be ye angry, and sin not:

1 Timothy 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

1 Peter 3:9
Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

I'm only sharing my understanding. Share yours. We can compare, discuss differences, understand better where the other comes from, and build one another up.

There is no place for insults, strife, and railings between brethren. We should be blessing one another, not railing at one another.

[votivesoul]

The Pharisees were so jealous of and had it in for Jesus because they just couldn't believe anything He said was true, BECAUSE IT WASN'T TRUE FOR THEM, it couldn't be true for Jesus, or for any of His followers.

That's Legalism 101.

All this talk of grace. Shall sin abound that grace may abound, or does grace abound to teach us to stop sinning (a la Titus 2:11-12)?

Esaias was right, way back in this thread. Working from a wrong understanding of Biblical perfection gets people all tied in knots when it comes to discussing "sinless perfection".

The moment I came up from being baptized and started speaking in tongues, I was made perfect in Christ. Mature? No, not mature. Lots to learn. Even more, perhaps to unlearn.

But all my sins were remitted. The debt of sin I had accrued was cancelled. I was justified, made righteous, morally innocent as a newborn baby, and just as perfect.

Does that mean everything was right in my life? No, not at all. Was I flawless in all my moral actions, attitudes, and behaviors? No, not at all. Does that mean I was not perfect? No, not at all.

But the legalist wants to deny all that and look to find any fault they can to point at so they can accuse and say otherwise, because they don't understand, like the Pharisees didn't understand, how what isn't true for them can still be true for someone else.

The disciples ate with unwashed hands and picked grain on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees attacked them and accused them to Jesus, and Jesus schooled them real good real fast (even though they didn't learn anything). The legalist wants to point a finger at a saint for the time they exceeded the speed limit and attack them for it, and throw "obey every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake" in their face and call them an imperfect sinner, and Jesus is quick to school them, but they don't want to learn anything.

[votivesoul]

Being made sinlessly perfect is not some Catholic penance doctrine of whipping your back until you bleed to teach you a lesson for having a lustful thought. It's not going into the desert to become an ascetic monk, starving yourself, denying yourself sleep, chanting the Jesus Prayer 24 hours a day so you can achieve hesychastic henosis with the monad.

All of that is works designed to bring about self-righteousness. There is no faith, or trust in the impartation of righteousness that God gives us through the Gospel. It's the same with holiness. Holiness doesn't come about from such asceticism. It comes from an imputation of God's moral character to our moral character. It is experienced by faith, achieved by faith, received by faith, just like the HOLY Spirit, that which makes us and keep us holy.

Until this legalistic, ascetic view of perfection is rejected, it will be impossible to understand the truth of sinless perfection doctrine.