Sinless Perfection

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Do you hear yourself? It is a matter or the heart? But to fulfill the desires of your skin? Bro, if you cut off the head, the body is dead. Do you understand? Desire is not in your brain, it is not in the blood pump in your chest, it is in your heart, do you even know what that is?

Evidently, you've never had your body wake up before you did. And it didn't care if you were married or not. I think you have low T, not sinless perfection.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

All sinless perfection is:

We can live without sin.

We can be perfect with God.

This is so easy to prove. I had to change everything I believed over the years. Except this. Its always been easy to see. Its everywhere you look in scripture.

I don't deny that we can overcome the flesh through the mind of Christ and the power of the Spirit and thereby live above sin.

I'm only saying your fallen, sinful, carnal flesh hasn't been glorified yet. And if you don't keep it under subjection, its sinful and carnal desires will rule you. This part of you is still unregenerated. It will take over, if you let it. Until your flesh is glorified, that part of you isn't perfect yet. Else, you'd not need to be glorified, and made like Christ when He comes.

You're a treasure in an earthen vessel.

[votivesoul]

Rock or sand?

I know people who had their spiritual foundation built up for them in their new walk with the Lord upon sand, and every rainy season, they fell apart, because the fundamentals of their understanding of doctrine was off from the beginning.

Likewise, others have been correctly instructed and were founded upon a rock, and they remain there to this day.

This area is just one such area.

When I was a very new convert, less than a year in the faith, my pastor told me other ministers in the district criticized him and our church for "not having a swallow end". That has stuck with me all these years, because if he had ever been lenient about sin, and not preached hard against it, and had allowed me a "shallow end", I would have either washed out, or become so upset I would have grown to despise church and who knows where that would have led.

The teaching of the cross is not, gently climb on up, get yourself nice and comfortable, ease into it, go slow with the nails, and try and survive it.

People think because Isaias reads Jesus was as a lamb before His shearers who didn't open His mouth, that He just quietly took it all in, passively reflecting on fulfilling His Father's will while having His carpal and tarsal nerves being shredded. When His shoulders dislocated, He didn't just glance over at them and sigh.

If you think Jesus wasn't screaming in agony, you've watched The Greatest Story Ever Told too many times. He didn't go softly into the night, in His sleep, but under the worst possible duress, ex crucificado. His death by crucifixion was ugly. He was naked, spasming, hyperventilating, possibly vomiting from the pain, loss of bowels, the whole deal.

And that's what our mortification of our flesh is compared to, to crucifixion, and it's supposed to be easy? Shallow end, work your way into it?

My point is, maybe some are having a hard time with this because of where or how they started???

Do you hate yourself? And I don't mean in the emo-tortured poet whiny way of it. I mean do you hate yourself the way Jesus said you are to?

Every time Jesus dealt with me regarding a work of my flesh, He'd let me get a good long whiff of it, until it made me detest it so much I wouldn't go another minute living with it. He would help me hate it the way He hated it, and when I did, He'd give me the power to break free from it.

I just can't help but think a lot of people are not willing to do what is necessary to throw themselves down unto the rock, and be broken.

It might seem condescending, or feel like there is condemnation in this message, but I submit the condemnation is not in the message, or even the messenger, it's in the conscience of the hearer who just can't believe anyone can be as free and liberated by Christ as is claimed, since they themselves are not as free or liberated as they wish they were.

I remember a brother one-time jealously railing at me "People listen to you like they think you're Jesus!". All that really was about, was "I'm mad at you because I want people to listen to ME like they think I'm Jesus, and they don't!"

Please don't be like that, brothers and sisters. If someone is presenting you the truth of this doctrine, don't project onto him or her your own perceived shortcomings or get jealous of him or her because he or she might have reached a place in Christ you have not.

[votivesoul]

One last thing, there is a doctrine of grace, but grace is also a doctor, in the sense of being a teacher.

Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly, righteously, and Godly, in the here and now.

If grace isn't teaching you that, you've fallen from grace.

If all grace is teaching you is you can fail as often as is comfortable, you're never going to be free from the law of sin and death, sin will somehow just always have some kind of dominion over you, just make sure you always confess and ask forgiveness, but don't worry about changing your behavior or attitude, that "grace" is coming from another Jesus.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It is written:

Romans 7:22–23 (ESV)
22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Present tense.

There is a law, a principle, active in the flesh. Sinful nature. Paul admonished us not to allow this nature to reign in our flesh. We are to discipline the flesh, and keep over it.

Chris, you are reading the ESV. But you still can’t understand what is being said.
Inner being, do you know what that is? No, you don’t. But you don’t care either.
Law of the mind? Know what that is? No, you can’t see it, because your argument is more important. Reigning nature? Is that come from bone marrow? Epidural tissue? Hair? Sinew? No, reigning nature is the natural man which is his thinking. The flesh is the mind buddy boy. Which sadly you allow to control you, instead of Jesus Christ.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

One last thing, there is a doctrine of grace, but grace is also a doctor, in the sense of being a teacher.

Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly, righteously, and Godly, in the here and now.

If grace isn't teaching you that, you've fallen from grace.

If all grace is teaching you is you can fail as often as is comfortable, you're never going to be free from the law of sin and death, sin will somehow just always have some kind of dominion over you, just make sure you always confess and ask forgiveness, but don't worry about changing your behavior or attitude, that "grace" is coming from another Jesus.

Amen

[Amanah]

If we walk in the Spirit by prayer, fasting, reading the word and assembling with the church, we can overcome the flesh. (Gal 5:16)

But there are times when we will be tempted to anger, gossip, strife, something that is contrary to the Spirit, and sometimes we will fail.

In most cases it hopefully will be rare. But if we do fail we have an advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1)

It's hard for me to believe that most of us always walk in sinless perfection.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

If we walk in the Spirit by prayer, fasting, reading the word and assembling with the church, we can overcome the flesh. (Gal 5:16)

But there are times when we will be tempted to anger, gossip, strife, something that is contrary to the Spirit, and sometimes we will fail.

In most cases it hopefully will be rare. But if we do fail we have an advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1)

It's hard for me to believe that most of us always walk in sinless perfection.

What I don't get is how the sinless perfection side believe one can walk in sinless perfect, yet they succumb to railing, strife, anger, etc. They'll deny the railings, they'll deny the strife. They'll even deny the anger, but it bleeds through their posts. They really aren't more perfect than the rest of us. We're all depending upon the power of the Spirit to give us victory over the carnal mind and the desires of the flesh. And when we sin, we all (including the sinless perfection people) fall to our knees and seek God's grace and mercy, looking to empowerment to live above the attitude or actions we've allowed ourselves to succumb to.

So, while some argue that they depend upon grace, and others argue that they believe in sinless perfection, none of us seem to be more perfect than any other and our practice is essentially the same.

That's why I just say that I believe in God's grace. I don't even want to give the mere impression that I feel more perfect than anyone else. But that's just me.

So, let us continue to seek the Spirit and overcome the flesh. Depending upon God's grace. Let us focus on and affirm our identity in Christ Jesus:

I am God’s child (John 1:12)

I have been justified (Romans 5:1)

I am Christ’s friend (John 15:15)

I belong to God (1 Corinthians 6:20)

I am a member of Christ’s Body (1 Corinthians 12:27)

I am assured all things work together for good (Romans 8:28)

I have been established, anointed and sealed by God (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

I am confident that God will perfect the work He has begun in me (Philippians 1:6)

I am a citizen of heaven (Philippians 3:20)

I am hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3)

I have not been given a spirit of fear, but of power, love and self-discipline (2 Timothy 1:7)

I am born of God and the evil one cannot touch me (1 John 5:18)

I am blessed in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3)

I am chosen before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4, 11)

I am holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:4)

I am adopted as his child (Ephesians 1:5)

I am given God’s glorious grace lavishly and without restriction (Ephesians 1:5,8)

I am in Him (Ephesians 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:30)

I have redemption (Ephesians 1:8)

I am forgiven (Ephesians 1:8; Colossians 1:14)

I have purpose (Ephesians 1:9 & 3:11)

I have hope (Ephesians 1:12)

I am included (Ephesians 1:13)

I am sealed with the promised Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13)

I am a saint (Ephesians 1:18)

I am salt and light of the earth (Matfthew 5:13-14)

I have been chosen and God desires me to bear fruit (John 15:1,5)

I am a personal witness of Jesus Christ (Acts 1:8)

I am God’s coworker (2 Corinthians 6:1)

I am a minister of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:17-20)

I am alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:5)

I am raised up with Christ (Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 2:12)

I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 2:6)

I have been shown the incomparable riches of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:7)

God has expressed His kindness to me (Ephesians 2:7)

I am God’s workmanship (Ephesians 2:10)

I have been brought near to God through Christ’s blood (Ephesians 2:13)

I have peace (Ephesians 2:14)

I have access to the Father (Ephesians 2:18)

I am a member of God’s household (Ephesians 2:19)

I am secure (Ephesians 2:20)

I am a holy temple (Ephesians 2:21; 1 Corinthians 6:19)

I am a dwelling for the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:22)

I share in the promise of Christ Jesus (Ephesians 3:6)

God’s power works through me (Ephesians 3:7)

I can approach God with freedom and confidence (Ephesians 3:12)

I know there is a purpose for my sufferings (Ephesians 3:13)

I can grasp how wide, long, high and deep Christ’s love is (Ephesians 3:18)

I am completed by God (Ephesians 3:19)

I can bring glory to God (Ephesians 3:21)

I have been called (Ephesians 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:9)

I can be humble, gentle, patient and lovingly tolerant of others (Ephesians 4:2)

I can mature spiritually (Ephesians 4:15)

I can be certain of God’s truths and the lifestyle which He has called me to (Ephesians 4:17)

I can have a new attitude and a new lifestyle (Ephesians 4:21-32)

I can be kind and compassionate to others (Ephesians 4:32)

I can forgive others (Ephesians 4:32)

I am a light to others, and can exhibit goodness, righteousness and truth (Ephesians 5:8-9)

I can understand what God’s will is (Ephesians 5:17)

I can give thanks for everything (Ephesians 5:20)

I don’t have to always have my own agenda (Ephesians 5:21)

I can honor God through marriage (Ephesians 5:22-33)

I can parent my children with composure (Ephesians 6:4)

I can be strong (Ephesians 6:10)

I have God’s power (Ephesians 6:10)

I can stand firm in the day of evil (Ephesians 6:13)

I am dead to sin (Romans 1:12)

I am not alone (Hebrews 13:5)

I am growing (Colossians 2:7)

I am His disciple (John 13:15)

I am prayed for by Jesus Christ (John 17:20-23)

I am united with other believers (John 17:20-23)

I am not in want (Philippians 4:19)

I possess the mind of Christ (I Corinthians 2:16)

I am promised eternal life (John 6:47)

I am promised a full life (John 10:10)

I am victorious (I John 5:4)

My heart and mind is protected with God’s peace (Philippians 4:7)

I am chosen and dearly loved (Colossians 3:12)

I am blameless (I Corinthians 1:8)

I am set free (Romans 8:2; John 8:32)

I am crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20)

I am a light in the world (Matthew 5:14)

I am more than a conqueror (Romans 8:37)

I am the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21)

I am safe (I John 5:18)

I am part of God’s kingdom (Revelation 1:6)

I am healed from sin (I Peter 2:24)

I am no longer condemned (Romans 8:1, 2)

I am not helpless (Philippians 4:13)

I am overcoming (I John 4:4)

I am persevering (Philippians 3:14)

I am protected (John 10:28)

I am born again (I Peter 1:23)

I am a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17)

I am delivered (Colossians 1:13)

I am redeemed from the curse of the Law (Galatians 3:13)

I am qualified to share in His inheritance (Colossians 1:12)

I am victorious (1 Corinthians 15:57)

Give God praise and glory!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris, you are reading the ESV. But you still can’t understand what is being said.
Inner being, do you know what that is? No, you don’t. But you don’t care either.
Law of the mind? Know what that is? No, you can’t see it, because your argument is more important. Reigning nature? Is that come from bone marrow? Epidural tissue? Hair? Sinew? No, reigning nature is the natural man which is his thinking. The flesh is the mind buddy boy. Which sadly you allow to control you, instead of Jesus Christ.

One's inner being is the inner man, one's spirit.

The other law in our members, the law of sin, is the fleshly, carnal, sin nature that calls us to seek carnal and sinful pleasures to satisfy the desires of the flesh. The term "flesh" isn't only speaking to the carnal and natural desires of the body, but it is also used to describe the carnal mind that wills to satisfy the desires of the body.

The law of the mind that Paul is talking about here is the divine nature of the mind of Christ. The divine nature abiding in us as new creatures calls us to obey the indwelling Holy Spirit by living a holy and righteous life. It is through the mind of Christ that the carnal mind is overcome and one finds the power and will to deny the desires of the flesh and live above sin.

We are not to allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies by giving in to the desires of the flesh, but we are to walk in the spirit and deny the flesh by surrendering to the new nature provided by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

[JoeBandy]

Man, I have been away for weeks.... still the same couple people arguing with each other. We should rename this the EB and Aquila show. EB you are still the arrogant know it all about any subject that is brought up and Aquila your post are BORING!!!