Original Sin

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

A deteriorating universe is not very good.

And an expanding one, at that.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, God had a perfect plan to take sin in its subtlety.

There is a difference between foreknowing what would occur and having everything set up to deal with it, and planning and putting things ion place for sin to have an opportunity. To say God did not intend for Adam to remain on earth physically immortal in order to deal with sin is to say God willed for man to sin.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

And an expanding one, at that.

Bro. thats not quite right. The big bang teaches an expanding universe, but creationists generally teach a deteriorating universe, according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Here is something by secular scientists.....https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0CC4QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sci-news.com%2Fastronomy%2Fscience-universe-not-expanding-01940.html&ei=MNe7VM_bIoShyASG34L4DQ&usg=AFQjCNH7s wgK6_My8mrhxXPkgUrwwQFrJg&sig2=88izU9jq4YmaEEiCaQu Bgg&bvm=bv.83829542,d.aWw

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

There is a difference between foreknowing what would occur and having everything set up to deal with it, and planning and putting things ion place for sin to have an opportunity. To say God did not intend for Adam to remain on earth physically immortal in order to deal with sin is to say God willed for man to sin.

No, Beloved, you're misreading God. He would never will man to sin. You are allowing your logic to get in the way of knowing God.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Sean

Bro. thats not quite right. The big bang teaches an expanding universe, but creationists generally teach a deteriorating universe, according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Here is something by secular scientists.....https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0CC4QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sci-news.com%2Fastronomy%2Fscience-universe-not-expanding-01940.html&ei=MNe7VM_bIoShyASG34L4DQ&usg=AFQjCNH7s wgK6_My8mrhxXPkgUrwwQFrJg&sig2=88izU9jq4YmaEEiCaQu Bgg&bvm=bv.83829542,d.aWw

Well, that just goes to show how much education I lack.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

No, Beloved, you're misreading God. He would never will man to sin. You are allowing your logic to get in the way of knowing God.

I never said God willed man to sin. I am saying that the idea that God put man in a situation on earth that was not intended forevermore because sin would come is a faulty understanding and is speculation at best. And it implies God willed man to sin, which is why it cannot be true.

Logic comes in when we speculate errors like that. Not when we accept the bible for what it says and add nothing to it.

No matter how we slice it, if we believe God set something in place for Adam that was not meant to be permanent, but did it BECAUSE of the future presence of sin, then we have to say in some shape or form God indirectly WILLED man to sin. Otherwise, His plans would not have been affected in his initial placement of Adam in the world. We have to believe that God put Adam where He did as what His permanent and initial will for Adam was, and things done after the fall into sin were done to return man to that prefall status.

Of course it is return to relationship with God, but redemption has so much of the Kingdom and Adam's dominion involved in it that we have to say there's more than just restored relations. There's restored purpose and will.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume

A deteriorating universe is not very good.

Meaning, God did not create a deteriorating universe. It became subject to corruption due to sin.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I never said God willed man to sin. I am saying that the idea that God put man in a situation on earth that was not intended forevermore because sin would come is a faulty understanding and is speculation at best. And it implies God willed man to sin, which is why it cannot be true.
Logic comes in when we speculate errors like that. Not when we accept the bible for what it says and add nothing to it.

As far as I understand this life, everything that has been created on earth has a beginning,
and an end. Even those things that seem permanent are slowly dying. I don't have to defend
what I write: the scriptures teach that man is a spirit, and that a body of dust was formed around
him and man became a living soul. If you can receive this: man believes in his spirit, repents with
his soul, and obeys with his body. But it is the spirit of man that is eternal.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

As far as I understand this life, everything that has been created on earth has a beginning, and an end. Even those things that seem permanent are slowly dying. I don't have to defend what I write: the scriptures teach that man is a spirit, and that a body of dust was formed around him and man became a living soul. If you can receive this: man believes in his spirit, repents with his soul, and obeys with his body. But it is the spirit of man that is eternal.

You are correct in stating that ”everything that has been created on earth has a beginning, and an end,” however, that is NOT the manner in which God intended for things to be at their creation!

Your comment stating that ”Even those things that seem permanent are slowly dying,” seems to fit right in with your previous statements wherein you allude to the fact that, in your opinion, the heavens and the earth that God created began to decay the very moment He spoke them into existence! That’s equivalent to saying that everything God created, He intended it to be only “temporary,” and that is simply inane at best but actually displays your lack of understanding the righteousness of God and His perfection! Psalm 145:17 clearly states that "The LORD is righteous in ALL his ways, and HOLY IN ALL HIS WORKS>"

As I have already pointed out to you, if you had but taken the time to read it you should have recognized its scriptural veracity, the words of Genesis 3:17 plainly reveals that in God’s imposing the penalty of the death upon Adam's body (and subsequently ALL mankind through his “seed”), a significant “part and parcel” of that judgment included His “cursing” the very earth which He had previously created as “perfect,” just as He had done in “forming” Adam’s “perfect” body! Both the earth and Adam’s body became corrupt and from that very moment began the slow process of dying, however, THAT was NOT the manner in which either began their existence!

You certainly appear to take lots of liberty in interpreting the language of the Bible to suit your preconceived idea of things!

Where does the language of the Bible state that “man believes with his spirit, repents with his soul, and obeys with his body”? The only part of such a statement that possesses even the slightest “hint” of truth to it is that part wherein you write man ”repents with his soul.”

Do you even know what the “soul” of man is? Is it not that eternal (immortal) invisible element of every human being which God created “in His image”? Is it not the only part of every human being that is capable of conscious thought, therefore the only part of man that is even capable of repenting and obeying God’s commandments? Surely the human body possesses NO such ability!

Is not the “spirit” of man that “breath of life” which our “body” inhales at the moment of our birth? Surely you’re not stating that the “breath” of man has the ability of conscious thought!

Does not man’s “spirit” belong to God, for it is He who gives it, and it is He who explicitly stated in the words of Genesis 6:3 that He will not always allow it to strive with man, and this because man is not only a “soul” which He created after His likeness, but he is also flesh wherein His “spirit” (aka “breath of life”) resides, and that because of the judgment of death which He imposed upon it must, at some moment in time, perish?

Did not Solomon write that at the moment of man's death "the spirit shall return to God who gave it"? (Ecclesiastes 12:7). God did NOT "give" man a "soul," rather He created man as a soul, places that soul in a body which He forms, and then at its birth, GIVES it His "spirit" ("breath of life"). Those are biblical facts!!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

As far as I understand this life, everything that has been created on earth has a beginning,
and an end. Even those things that seem permanent are slowly dying. I don't have to defend
what I write: the scriptures teach that man is a spirit, and that a body of dust was formed around
him and man became a living soul. If you can receive this: man believes in his spirit, repents with
his soul, and obeys with his body. But it is the spirit of man that is eternal.

Well, again, no part of us can be eternal since we had a beginning.

But death did not come except after sin. So we cannot say everything created has an ending. Ending is death and death came only by sin. Romans 5:12 explains it all.