How close should a pastor get to the members?

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes but the point I have been making is you don't have to be a Pastor in order to experience this AND associating with only other Pastors is not going to fix that.


yes but it appears as a class. Look..a non Pastor can experience the same thing from a pastor or a non-Pastor..so what is that person to do? Stop associating with both? See how easy it is to view this as a class issue?


SO what if another Pastor finds out that Pastors kids watched a movie? Or what if that saint found out another saints kid watched a movie? The problem there is about being human, not a distinction between classes. We are, perhaps unwittingly, turning it into a class issue. Can a Pastor trust ANY Pastor? I have seen Pastors at their worst here on AFF...I know some can't be trusted anymore than a non-Pastor. So even a Pastor has to be careful which friends he has amoung the Pastors. It's not about being a non-pastor that makes one untrustworthy.


Well see, exactly. This is my point. Discerning who you can trust has nothing to do with whether or not they are a pastor. This has been part of my point. Who you can trust has nothing to do with whether they are a pastor or not. Some will see that as Pastor bashing unfortunatly...but since I am saying this is the truth with ALL people I supposed I am bashing ALL people.

The truth is the truth....people are untrustworthy because they are humans, not because they are a pastor or not. When we make that sort of distinction we are, whether one wants to admit it or not, creating a class distinction and division.


But what does it say...at least to non-pastors, when the ONLY "class" one thinks they can trust are Pastors? It does create a class division. It does look as though the statement is "Pastors you can trust, saints you can not"...and the truth is there are a LOT Of saints out there that a Pastor can trust.

I see you talking but all I hear is blah, blah, blah.

Bro, you lack wisdom.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

Charnock, in the interest of full disclosure, and Biblical requirements of righteous judgement, please answer the same questions you have asked of me.

I do not pretend to possess equal frankness.

[Amos]

Originally Posted by Charnock

I see you talking but all I hear is blah, blah, blah.

Bro, you lack wisdom.

This is obviously an issue that our Brother can't deal with objectively.

The prism of emotion he views it through has distorted his perception.

[Praxeas]

BTW MissB. I appreciate you seeing through the rhetoric to the real point and not getting caught up in personal stuff.

That is what I want to do, jsut get to the issue and the heart of the matter.

To the others that were offended by my posts, I am sorry to have offended you. I don't think though I can always post in such a manner that you won't find offensive. I have opinions about what is right and wrong to do whether it be Pastors or non Pastors and I often speak my mind concerning both.

Im sorry for taking some of your posts personal and reciprocating.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Amos

This is obviously an issue that our Brother can't deal with objectively.

The prism of emotion he views it through has distorted his perception.

Yes, he is using a kaleidoscope instead of binoculars.

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW MissB. I appreciate you seeing through the rhetoric to the real point and not getting caught up in personal stuff.

That is what I want to do, jsut get to the issue and the heart of the matter.

To the others that were offended by my posts, I am sorry to have offended you. I don't think though I can always post in such a manner that you won't find offensive. I have opinions about what is right and wrong to do whether it be Pastors or non Pastors and I often speak my mind concerning both.

Im sorry for taking some of your posts personal and reciprocating.

Amen. The heart of the matter.

[ChTatum]

Originally Posted by Charnock

I do not pretend to possess equal frankness.

I do not pretend either.

Nor do I hide who I am, with all my failures and weaknesses. If you are seeking perfection in a pastor, I ain't it.

I pity the one you think is.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 2020Vision

This is simply a leadership style. I've seen the buddy pastor model work in very few cases. I've seen the "love them, eat with them, but don't be their best friend" model work in many cases. In the latter, there have been abuses where the Pastor has no relationship with his church. But the model isn't faulty, it's the individual Pastor.

A leader has to be always seen as a leader. Like it or not we put these folks above us (in our mind at least, and with our respect - and it's too bad to even church people we have to qualify the "above us", "below us" language). You lose that and you've lost the ability to lead, and become one of the flock. It's not an easy road being a leader or a pastor. It has great rewards, but also great sacrifices. Count the cost.

What do you use as a "test" for something working or not?

To begin with I don't expect a Pastor to be close "friends" with every saint...Im not close friends with every saint. But that does not mean a Pastor can't have friends among the saints just as he has that are Pastors.

Im not sure what "works" means to you.

I know Leadership. I've never had to act or treat myself above or them below in order to do that. In fact to me a Leader should be a facilitater...someone that is molding other leaders and growing them into maturity.

I consider my pastor a very good friend of mine. In fact I consider at least two Pastors to be good friends of mine that we can and do discuss personal matters. I have never lost sight of the fact that both men were still Pastors in all that. And they never treat me any different.

Any person, be it Pastor or not, is going to have to choose friends wisely, be they Pastors or non-Pastors. Who you can trust is not about what position you hold

[Amos]

For the record, j have not been in any way offended, and don't expect a person to feel compelled to post in any certain way to protect my feelings.

I just thought we weren't supposed to resort to accusations and personal attacks here.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

[Charnock]

It's been fun folks.

Movie time.

See ya.