Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If God has laid this burden upon your heart, I encourage you. However, once rants of condemnation to "Hell" begin flying... the truly thoughtful members of your audience is blinded by the threat of Hell, instead of considering the validity of your points.

I can debate the best of them on tithing. However, you'll never hear me directly threaten with Hell.

If you don't believe me... consider the previous two posts by other posters. Your message gets lost in the spirit of your condemnation.

Realize that you're out to win hearts and change minds... not to make yourself a martyr and relegate your cause to the sidelines.

Brother, an earlier poster said...."do you know what folks are saying about you?"

I honestly dont care, this was NEVER about me. I am through with these selfish folks. This is about real live SOULS, that are trying to make it into the Kingdom of God. These men have made it an EXCLUSIVE CLUB of their own, charging dues to be part of it. It is no less than a "salvation tax".

I want every single reader to see what I just said....THEY ARE CHARGING DUES TO BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, an earlier poster said...."do you know what folks are saying about you?"

I honestly dont care, this was NEVER about me. I am through with these selfish folks. This is about real live SOULS, that are trying to make it into the Kingdom of God. These men have made it an EXCLUSIVE CLUB of their own, charging dues to be part of it. It is no less than a "salvation tax".

I want every single reader to see what I just said....THEY ARE CHARGING DUES TO BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

I'm glad you're through..........now I hope you give every dime you have to propagating your global rebuke of the religious pimps of the gospel. BTW, as you brush aside those sinners and bump them right into hell in your hurry to rebuke the heresy right out of the church......after a while you'll have a lot of empty churches and a lot of lost souls that you'll have to give account for......because they got sidetracked from reaching souls so theycould fix the tithing problem.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

Sure it will, when sinners are off the hook when it comes to money, their preconcieved idea of "all the church wants is money" is gone. Then after they are "easily" converted(Acts 2 style), the Holy Ghost will teach them how to and WHO to give to.


The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.


There it is again Bishop, implying someone is not saved if he is not giving to your standard of measurement. You just cant help it, can you?


Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

Show me in the N.T. where we are "cursed" for not giving please?
There are "blessings" for givers, but not "curses" for non givers. That is a completely man made philosophy that marginalizes the poor to constantly give away everything they have and be pennyless when they are old. I see it all around me and am aquainted with thousands of these very saints in my area.(even in my own family)




FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.


That is what I use to hear at the last church I attended...LOL. Now comes the "challenge" that if they are to be saved, they ARE UNDER OBLIGATION to give.....Thats forced giving. Where in the N.T. church is "forced giving" taught.....WHERE?


We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

Indeed I will Bishop....That is exactly why I am doing this.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I'm glad you're through..........now I hope you give every dime you have to propagating your global rebuke of the religious pimps of the gospel. BTW, as you brush aside those sinners and bump them right into hell in your hurry to rebuke the heresy right out of the church......after a while you'll have a lot of empty churches and a lot of lost souls that you'll have to give account for......because they got sidetracked from reaching souls so theycould fix the tithing problem.

Well bishop, I have been involved in winning souls in large numbers for 35 years(consistently), including converting some baptist churches to Apostolic.

I have been STOPPED by the Lord in my tracks to deal with this issue...I can only deal with what He wants me to deal with now.

I "brushed" this issue aside for decades and NEVER thought I would have to do this.

Remember. I did not "create" this problem. YOU GUYS DID..I am only trying to straighten it out, with the help of the Lord Jesus.

I met with multiple pastors in my area first(over 10). They just blacklisted me. I tried to go through the "proper" protocol, to no avail.

Well the Lord chose plan "B".....go to the saints, to get to the pastor. Thats what I am doing now.

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

Excellent post elder. No sense wasting your good council on Sean. He's a bit beyond reasonable at this point. See's himself as a holy warrior on a mission from God.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

Excellent post elder. No sense wasting your good council on Sean. He's a bit beyond reasonable at this point. See's himself as a holy warrior on a mission from God.

Just trying to keep you out of hell for teaching false doctrine to the Lords' church bro.

You really should be thanking me.

[Michael The Disciple]

I wonder how many believe that one will go to Hell for non tithe paying? Anyone on this thread?

I am against the doctrine that its a true doctrine that one must tithe. But Im even stronger about the doctrine that a man cannot wear a beard. And that a woman cannot trim her hair.

No doubt many souls that could have came to Oneness remained in the Evangelical groups because of these non Apostolic man made traditions.

Hey Sean, turn some of your energy loose in THAT direction!

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

The previous pastor is right - he did hammer it. I went there for two years and he claimed no one tithed (as I was reading the scriptures for him!) and I was tithing! Guess my salary wasn't big enough to notice

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Sometimes you have to read the context, understand the figures of speech and see the message rather than isolate one verse out of context and go by that

Now, Acts says nothing about an empty room where nobody can see them

It says they laid the stuff at the Apostles feet

Act 4:33 With great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was on them all.
Act 4:34 For there was no one needy among them, because those who were owners of land or houses were selling them and bringing the proceeds from the sales
Act 4:35 and placing them at the apostles' feet. The proceeds were distributed to each, as anyone had need.


Prax, The Apostles feet, not the whole congregation...

That is my point, It was NOT in secret. It was in front of the Apostles

Remember the widow women who threw in her last dollar? Jesus and the Apostles all saw it.

Prax, this was in the Jewish temple, under the Law. Not in the early church...

So? Jesus said what he said before this woman even gave her money and was speaking about the Jews under the law at the time

I can give without letting anyone know the amount. It's still a secret.

Its not a secret when your brother sees you "march" up to the altar or put your money in a basket...You are part of the "intimidation to give" process...

The amount is, plus we are speaking about giving in church in general...in public not in secret.

If we take what you are claiming it means, then there can never be public prayer. We have to pray all alone...in secret

Not at all, Jesus wants us to PRAY in a secret place, first and foremost. However, we see collective prayer in the early church, but we have no evidence of offerings done in a congregational setting. That is a "modern" method, and contrary to the model of giving set by Jesus and the Apostles in the early church.

You are making my point. His words, which were in the exact same context as giving, don't mean what you believe it to mean. If it was an absolute law he was giving then you should only pray in private without anyone seeing and you should only give without anyone seeing



Mat 6:5 "Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.

Jesus was addressing an attitude. We see Public prayer many times. Even Jesus did not always pray alone

Originally Posted by Sean

As I said above Prax....(believe it or not, there are churches that actually practice "secret giving", using a safe in the foyer to keep the visibility of giving on the low).

I hope they are consistent and have secret prayers and not prayers with others around

One thing that greatly differs between giving money from prayer is when you dont have ANY money, you can always be "rich" in prayer. One is "mammon" and one is "spiritual". One you work for or inherit, the other(prayer) is a "free gift" or "ability" for anyone, rich or poor, from God.

Yeah...except Jesus uses the same context and the words and so if Jesus meant never give without others seeing your good deed, the same holds true for prayer.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I wonder how many believe that one will go to Hell for non tithe paying? Anyone on this thread?

I am against the doctrine that its a true doctrine that one must tithe. But Im even stronger about the doctrine that a man cannot wear a beard. And that a woman cannot trim her hair.

No doubt many souls that could have came to Oneness remained in the Evangelical groups because of these non Apostolic man made traditions.

Hey Sean, turn some of your energy loose in THAT direction!

Brother, when I get done skinnin' them here, I'll start on that group next!