Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Maybe God is opening their eyes through ME!
I just might be the answer to your prayer brother.
Think about that for a minute...


Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple


Did the Apostles teach tithing in the original church of his day?....I rest my case.

If God has laid this burden upon your heart, I encourage you. However, once rants of condemnation to "Hell" begin flying... the truly thoughtful members of your audience is blinded by the threat of Hell, instead of considering the validity of your points.

I can debate the best of them on tithing. However, you'll never hear me directly threaten with Hell.

If you don't believe me... consider the previous two posts by other posters. Your message gets lost in the spirit of your condemnation.

Realize that you're out to win hearts and change minds... not to make yourself a martyr and relegate your cause to the sidelines.

[Aquila]

Those Apostolics who do not believe mandatory tithing should form a fellowship. Right now, the free will offering crowd just looks like a bunch of disgruntled individuals. Form a fellowship, have position papers, theological expositions on the subject, and loving dialogue with those who disagree.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Those Apostolics who do not believe mandatory tithing should form a fellowship. Right now, the free will offering crowd just looks like a bunch of disgruntled individuals. Form a fellowship, have position papers, theological expositions on the subject, and loving dialogue with those who disagree.

I think that would be interesting, but IMO the tithing issue isn't an important enough issue to form a fellowship. I would be more interested in an apostolic org with soteriology along the lines you and I affirm that didn't teach tithing. I was in an Apostolic church that didn't believe tithing for a couple of years but it was more legalistic than any UPC church I ever attended.

[bishoph]

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I think that would be interesting, but IMO the tithing issue isn't an important enough issue to form a fellowship. I would be more interested in an apostolic org with soteriology along the lines you and I affirm that didn't teach tithing. I was in an Apostolic church that didn't believe tithing for a couple of years but it was more legalistic than any UPC church I ever attended.

People like the exciting doctrines. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

I love your spirit on this BishopH.

I have no doubts that you are a loving and joyous minister of the Gospel. And I have no doubt, you don't threaten people with Hell over finances.

I know several pastors who don't believe that tithing is a necessity to be saved. However, those who are "members" are admonished to make a commitment (a vow?) to give 10% (tithe). It's up to them as to if they want to make this commitment or not. A commitment to God (a vow?) is indeed a binding commitment. Failure to fulfill one's vows is sin in God's eyes (Deuteronomy 23:21), so it is a serious commitment that can be preached about.

So, in a manner of speaking these "tithe preachers" maintain free will and have a system wherein they can deal compassionately with those who are struggling financially, without condemning them to Hell.

Not all "tithers" are Hellfire and Brimstone on the issue. Many, much like you, believe that tithing is a commitment of love made in accordance to one's own free will.

[Aquila]

I believe in "grace giving". I also believe in "vows". I don't believe that all who teaching tithing are going to Hell. I may believe they are mistaken if they condemn a person to Hell for not being able to tithe due to some unforeseen financial circumstance. But I will not bring the division that results from condemnation. Let them bring it. I'll simply teach what I believe the NT to teach on the issue and pray that it bears fruit among those to whom the Spirit intends it to reach.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I know several pastors who don't believe that tithing is a necessity to be saved. However, those who are "members" are admonished to make a commitment (a vow?) to give 10% (tithe). It's up to them as to if they want to make this commitment or not.

Should those members refuse to make a commitment, would their membership be in jeopardy? While it appears these pastors are not as "hard-core," it still seems as though they're pressuring to give. Just curious.

[Aquila]

For those who do teach the principle of tithing...

Are there any needy classes (widows, orphans, poor, fellow ministers) that are exempt from tithing within your congregation?

And, in what manner do the tithes collected into the "storehouse" go to aid needy classes?

I ask these questions because the Law as it pertained to the tithe was never a burden upon those needy classes in Israel. In fact, a portion of the tithes collected were to relieve the distress of the most needy among them (widows, orphans, etc.). Therefore, to Israel the tithe was a blessing to the people, namely the poor. The way so many preach tithing today... tithing under the New Covenant can be oppressive to the very classes the Law sought to protect and relieve. As a result, New Testament tithing becomes far more harsh and burdensome than the tithe could have ever been... even under the Law of Moses.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Should those members refuse to make a commitment, would their membership be in jeopardy? While it appears these pastors are not as "hard-core," it still seems as though they're pressuring to give. Just curious.

I do believe there are limitations placed upon them. For example, I doubt they can serve in ministry. They also may not have a vote in business meetings.