Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

[Austin]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Here are two questions. You can search for the others on this thread. I'm leaving in a few and will return later.

Please solely answer the two questions only. Thank you.


Psalms 58:3
These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Please describe David's comment of "people are born sinners."


David states in Psalms 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

What did David mean by "I was sinful at birth?'

Psalms 58;3 This was written at a time when Saul was maliciously against David. David was not king yet and is speaking from a prophetic voice. The other problem here is the Judges were conducting themselves in an unrighteous way in dealing with the people.

David is directing verse 3 directly to them and declaring that they were recognized as being corrupt and wicked from birth even until that very hour in which David speaks. Basically he is saying; These people never changed their wickedness and nature since they were infants. As they were born into a world with a sinful nature, so they continued in it unto that day with their deeds manisfested to all.

Psalms 51:5 This psalm is David recognizing his sinful nature from the moment that he was born and even when he was conceived. His expression is toward God in acknowledgement of his spiritual condition at the time as well as his spiritual condition as God sees it. He basically was in agreement with God in due regard to his unrighteousness.. He is expressing what every sinner should recognize at the time of their conversion, they are sinners by nature and are aware of it therefore making them selves accountable unto God and the only way they can be saved is by the grace and power of Almighty God.

A point to be taken into consideration. Then in his time David also recognized there was not any remedy for his nature or his sin. He only tried to be honest with God in hope it would bring him mercy.

Today Jesus has offered before God an atonement for the sins of those in the old testament who died in faith, for those of the hebrews of Jesus time, and all the gentile people in the earth that the wrath of God and the Judgement of God would not fall on them as it did in the old covenant.

Freed us from the penalty of sin which is damnation. Damnation is applied in justified judgement because God is just and has always been both in old and new covenants.

In order for him to rightfully judge someone he would have to declare and recognize them accountable for their sins
.
When does that happen in a person life, No one can honestly and truthfully answer that. Only Jesus can because only he knows all things which pertain to life and the future of things.

But one thing for certain that we can stand on as truth in the judgement of the Lord toward us is recorded in the verse which I posted concerning our children when they are born.

I personally believe the blood of Jesus is the mediator which causes infants to be saved prior to their accountability.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

1Peter3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.

Can an infant perform what is required to obtain righteousness at an age of infancy? If not, he is rendered unrighteous.

Before receiving God's righteousness we were dead in trespasses and sins. Unless a person is converted, they remain a sinner (Ephesians:1-3).

There are two classifications, righteous or unrighteous.

Paul also states in Ephesians 2:3, ....And were by nature the children of wrath..." It's is by nature, even at birth, we are children of wrath. There is only one remedy for that, the man Christ Jesus.

I suppose if you counted up the scriptures that support each side, your preferred side would win. Is that why you prefer it?

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by acerrak

jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Hmm a sanctified baby..

luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb

o look this one wasnt even baptized or repented of his sins yet> He has the HOLY GHOST. so if he was like david how could he ever have The Spirit of the Lord, He would be a unclean temple....

Now lets look at the context
Psalms 51
This entire psalms comes as a lament because Nathaniel the prophet of God has just told david you have commited adultry

He is drowning in sorrows, so he is dealing with his wickedness, and he states surely i was sinful from my time of birth.

By the Law david should have been stoned, and he knew it, but God granted Him forgivness. and he stated surely this sinfulness started at Birth.

This is agreement with what we have all stated, that every Baby will eventually act on their sinful nature. doesnt mean a baby commits sin. (again how can it)
It has no understanding of what sins even are. But the nature to be sinful is there.

psalms 58:3
this is a song
look at it closely. the pslamist stated the wicked from birth go astray.
well who does he consider the wicked? cause he puts a difference between the rightous and the wicked in the entire psalm

Look at this verse
pslams 58
10 The righteous will be glad when they are avenged,
when they dip their feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 Then people will say,
“Surely the righteous still are rewarded;
surely there is a God who judges the earth.”

He is speaking of His enemies, he is talking either about wicked men out to get Him or he is talking about other nations around israel.

Why didnt he state anything about the rightous people being wicked from birth to? wouldnt there be no different according to you sense, all babies are wicked.

No this psalm is about the enemies of rightousness, and how they are taught from child birth up to be wicked filled with lies and deciet.

He even makes a commit how he wished they would have been like a still born.
(Note) he didnt call the still born wicked.

Are you going to answer my two direct questions above? Don't dance around them while answering with other questions. Please address the two questions at hand. If you keep ignoring my questions, I will begin ignoring your post. Answer my questions and I will answer any additional questions you may have.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Are you going to answer my two direct questions above? Don't dance around them while answering with other questions. Please address the two questions at hands. If you keep ignoring my question, I will begin ignoring your post. Answer my questions and I will answer any addition questions you may have.

surely your not that dumb, i explained the verses to you.
i wash my hands of you.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas:
Does Paul's comment of "all have sinned" refer to humanity as a whole (every breathing human being on Earth), or is "all" referring to only individuals that have surpassed infancy? Romans 3:23 reads, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I'm sure you'll agree the"all" refers to all of mankind.

The tense is aorist and gives a historic picture. All have sinned. However we know that Jesus did NOT sin. Right?

And as has been said babies, being part of the human race, will eventually commit sin

But the question was already asked, what sins do babies commit? Lying? Adultery? Rob banks?

We read in Job 15:14, "What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?" There isn't one person that's pure/righteous, regardless of their age. Through Adam's sin all humanity lost their righteousness, and righteousness can only be obtained through Christ, according to Paul.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?

"can be". Every adult man was born of a woman. Every child born of a woman grows up and becomes sinners

Babies are innocent. Jesus already told us about children and how we must become like them

You suggested above that infants can't sin until they age. Paul states in Philippians that righteousness comes through faith in Christ. If infants are too young to be sinners, then surely they're too young to believe and become righteous through Christ and by Christ. What then, are infants righteous or unrighteous? Throughout scripture we read Jesus refers to the righteous and unrighteous, there is no in-between.

Infants are innocent,having never broken God's law. Paul prescribes salvation to sinners

Furthermore, David states in Psalms 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." In David's psalm he reflects on his life and openly admits being a sinner at birth. David isn't referencing his mother creating him while committing adultery.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

All this shows is what man is, a being with a fallen sinful nature. That does not mean that as soon as David was born he was fornicating or telling lies

Jesus came to us in the form of sinful flesh, yet was sinless

Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

In Psalms 86:16 David prays to God, "Turn to me and have mercy on me; grant your strength to your servant and save the son of your maidservant"

Here David plainly indicated his mother was God's maidservant, a women who devoted and committed her life to God. In Psalms 51:5, David plainly stated he was in sin at birth.

No he did not say he was IN sin, meaning he had committed sin by fornicating, lying or whatever. He was born into sin meaning, like us all he was born with the sin nature, having the propensity to commit sin.

It might help to study what sin is and how it comes about.

I've posted enough scripture to defend my stance. I now ask that you post scriptures identifying infants as being sinless until a certain age is reached

I already did

This scriptures don't imply children are sinless. It refers to humility a believer must possess as of a child.

It refers to children being innocent. It refers to children being the ideal state WE must be like

If Children are not innocent, this would be meaningless
Jer 19:4 I will do so because these people have left me and have defiled this place. They have offered sacrifices in it to other gods which neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah knew anything about. They have filled it with the blood of innocent children.

Adam and Eve became sinners when they sinned and understood good from evil.

But children don't understand good from evil YET

Deu 1:39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it..

In fact as far as the little children were concerned, they did believe. And the text indicates they were without sin...that it would take an adult to CAUSE them to sin
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

and how is it the angels of little ones always behold the face of God but not the angels of men?

Mat 18:10 Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I say to you that in Heaven their angels always behold the face of My Father in Heaven.

Jesus bore our sins. He took personal possession of our sins as his own sins so we could be declared righteous. He became sin.

no he did not bear our sins as his own. He bore OUR sin. Period. Our sin was put on him.

The word "sin" here is a noun, not a verb. Also there is no word in the greek for "became"

Simply he bore our sins

It's not true that Jesus could not have died until he became a sinner like us

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

We are in agreement, man became mortal due to disobedience.

Man dies because of one man's sin, Adam, not because of our own.

Therefore your argument about Jesus needing to sin in order to die is false

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Austin

Here's a simple question! If you were God and had to judge would you condemn a baby to hell?

What's to judge? They haven't rejected Christ. They haven't committed adultery or lied...the bible says they don't know good or evil yet

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

I'm not saying that children are lost, but I would like to know what this verse means. I cor 7 :24, For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy?

bump

Can someone who is defending the innocence of children please address this verse.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

bump

Can someone who is defending the innocence of children please address this verse.

Robertson
1Co 7:14
Is sanctified in the wife (hēgiastai en tēi gunaiki). Perfect passive indicative of hagiazō, to set apart, to hallow, to sanctify. Paul does not, of course, mean that the unbelieving husband is saved by the faith of the believing wife, though Hodge actually so interprets him. Clearly he only means that the marriage relation is sanctified so that there is no need of a divorce. If either husband or wife is a believer and the other agrees to remain, the marriage is holy and need not be set aside. This is so simple that one wonders at the ability of men to get confused over Paul’s language.
Else were your children unclean (epei ara ta tekna akatharta). The common ellipse of the condition with epei: “since, accordingly, if it is otherwise, your children are illegitimate (akatharta).” If the relations of the parents be holy, the child’s birth must be holy also (not illegitimate). “He is not assuming that the child of a Christian parent would be baptized; that would spoil rather than help his argument, for it would imply that the child was not hagios till it was baptized. The verse throws no light on the question of infant baptism” (Robertson and Plummer).

The topic is sanctification of marriage

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Robertson
1Co 7:14
Is sanctified in the wife (hēgiastai en tēi gunaiki). Perfect passive indicative of hagiazō, to set apart, to hallow, to sanctify. Paul does not, of course, mean that the unbelieving husband is saved by the faith of the believing wife, though Hodge actually so interprets him. Clearly he only means that the marriage relation is sanctified so that there is no need of a divorce. If either husband or wife is a believer and the other agrees to remain, the marriage is holy and need not be set aside. This is so simple that one wonders at the ability of men to get confused over Paul’s language.
Else were your children unclean (epei ara ta tekna akatharta). The common ellipse of the condition with epei: “since, accordingly, if it is otherwise, your children are illegitimate (akatharta).” If the relations of the parents be holy, the child’s birth must be holy also (not illegitimate). “He is not assuming that the child of a Christian parent would be baptized; that would spoil rather than help his argument, for it would imply that the child was not hagios till it was baptized. The verse throws no light on the question of infant baptism” (Robertson and Plummer).

The topic is sanctification of marriage

does this mean that the marriage of unbelievers is illegitimate and that the children of unbelievers are bastards? how does this affect their salvation status?