Sinless Perfection

[Michael The Disciple]

Do you believe one can overcome sin consistently? Can we be perfect as to holiness?

[consapente89]

The first 2 options are both true. We absolutely can live above sin but the flesh will always be prone to it. If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

[n david]

Originally Posted by consapente89

The first 2 options are both true. We absolutely can live above sin but the flesh will always be prone to it. If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

I agree.

[Aquila]

How does one define sin?

I know folks that define sin as strictly being a violation of the Ten Commandments (transgression of the Law of God). Since most can keep the Ten Commandments in their sleep, these individuals tend to do quite well in their ability to be living in sinless perfection.

And yet, I know others who believe that sin is anything that "misses the mark" of exemplifying God's divine love and holiness. Therefore, simply becoming angry at someone in traffic is a sin, a single lustful thought, no matter how quickly dismissed is sin. Becoming angry with one's spouse or children without just cause is sin. Eating that which is unhealthy is sin. Eating too much, healthy or not, is sin. White lies are sin, like when someone says, "Good morning. How are you?", if you answer, "Fantastic.", and you're not fantastic, fussing with kids, wife, etc., you've sinned. Breaking any law of man, for example speeding, jay walking, spitting on the sidewalk, is sin. Speaking to a brother or sister irreverently is sin. Jesting and jokes are sin, especially if off color. Anxiety is sin ("Be anxious for nothing."). I could go on and on and on. Essentially, these folks will tell you that you sin (miss the mark of God's perfection) every day.

So, I believe the key to understanding how an individual might answer this question is in their definition of sin.

How do we define "sin" in the context of living in sinless perfection?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Eating that which is unhealthy is sin.

Breaking any law of man, for example speeding, jay walking, spitting on the sidewalk, is sin.

Speaking to a brother or sister irreverently is sin.

Jesting and jokes are sin,

I don't believe the above are biblical sins.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Eating that which is unhealthy is sin.

Breaking any law of man, for example speeding, jay walking, spitting on the sidewalk, is sin.

Speaking to a brother or sister irreverently is sin.

Jesting and jokes are sin,

I don't believe the above are biblical sins.

If you believe in perfectionism, you'd have deny that they are sins. But, you're not alone. Many would agree with you.

But many would also differ.

For example...

If cigarettes and alcohol are bad for the body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit, making them sin... then so would any unhealthy food or substance consumed, especially if in excess. More people have defiled the temple and are suffering from health problems relating to diet than cigarettes and alcohol. Heart disease is the leading killer in the United States. And while cigarettes are a factor, diet is the primary culprit. So, one's position becomes problematic if they boast that they don't smoke or drink because it destroys the temple and is a sin... while wolfing down a Double Quarter Pounder w/ cheese, and a Supersized French Fries and Coke from McDonald's. lol

Of course, overall health should be considered. Some might be in great health, having adequate exercise, etc. to handle that kind of meal. But the majority can't say this is so for themselves in their lives. And so, what is sin for some isn't for others. I have some health issues that preclude me from eating various things on a regular basis. To eat them would harm the Lord's temple. So, it would be sin for me. Now, that doesn't mean my body building brother who is in great shape is sinning if he eats them regularly. So, there is some degree of flexibility here regarding the possibility of sin in one's diet.

Scripture admonishes us to obey every ordinance of man, and to even honor government authority. And so, to break the law is to miss the mark of being the Christian citizen Scripture calls us to be.

Jesus tells us if we so much as call a brother a fool, we're in danger of hell fire. Strife, debate, bitterness, railings, etc. are all depicted as sin in the NT.

And who can deny that Scripture condemns jesting, foolish talking, and filthiness of speech?

My point is, the "perfection" crowd don't see sin where the "sinners saved by grace" crowd does. Think about it, if someone didn't believe a dozen of these sins are sin... I guess it would be a little easier to claim perfection while defiling the temple, telling dirty jokes, lying, and railing against one's wife and kids... wouldn't it? However, if one sees sin as missing the mark of God's perfection and desire for us in all these areas, then sin can more easily become a daily encounter, calling for daily repentance, daily surrender, daily humility, daily brokenness, and thereby... such a perspective would require a grace greater than any of our good works to cover us. Thus showing why they emphasize the need for grace so heavily.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

1 Timothy 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

1 Peter 3:9
Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

1 Peter 3:7
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Colossians 3:21
Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Ephesians 5:4
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If you believe in perfectionism, you'd have deny that they are sins. But, you're not alone. Many would agree with you.

But many would also differ.

For example...

If cigarettes and alcohol are bad for the body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit, making them sin

Chris, I almost fell out how you make it look like ndavid agrees with you.

This is what he originally posted to you

Originally Posted by n david

I don't believe the above are biblical sins.

When I saw his name in your quote of him I almost fell out. Because being a reader you get to know authors. I know ndaid's postings, and he would of never said what you posted.

Originally Posted by Aquila

... then so would any unhealthy food or substance consumed, especially if in excess.

You are wrong, but you sent me to this post as if I would find want I asked you for. I didn't find it. I didn't find a teaching concerning what foods are unhealthy from the Bible writers. Chris, my family and I were vegans, vegetarians, explored all different forms of health. From your pictures which you have posted here you don't look like eating healthy is in your bio. That's why I was interested in finding out what on earth you were talking about. .

Originally Posted by Aquila

More people have defiled the temple and are suffering from health problems relating to diet than cigarettes and alcohol.

1 Corinthians 3:12-19 isn't talking about bean sprouts and vaping raspberry flavor vape juice. Not talking about just a pinch between the cheek and gum, or the Marlboro man. It is talking about what we build our foundation on concerning living for God. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, so when Jesus says that in Matthew 15:11 it isn't what you eat that defiles you. He wasn't talking about Beech Nut, or Coca Cola, He was talking about ritually unclean foods, not fast food hamburgers. I thought I would find some basis for your accusation that eating unhealthy was sin, because you said it was indeed sin. But, like good old Aquila fashion it was a dead end.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris, I almost fell out how you make it look like ndavid agrees with you.

This is what he originally posted to you



When I saw his name in your quote of him I almost fell out. Because being a reader you get to know authors. I know ndaid's postings, and he would of never said what you posted.



You are wrong, but you sent me to this post as if I would find want I asked you for. I didn't find it. I didn't find a teaching concerning what foods are unhealthy from the Bible writers. Chris, my family and I were vegans, vegetarians, explored all different forms of health. From your pictures which you have posted here you don't look like eating healthy is in your bio. That's why I was interested in finding out what on earth you were talking about. .



1 Corinthians 3:12-19 isn't talking about bean sprouts and vaping raspberry flavor vape juice. Not talking about just a pinch between the cheek and gum, or the Marlboro man. It is talking about what we build our foundation on concerning living for God. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, so when Jesus says that in Matthew 15:11 it isn't what you eat that defiles you. He wasn't talking about Beech Nut, or Coca Cola, He was talking about ritually unclean foods, not fast food hamburgers. I thought I would find some basis for your accusation that eating unhealthy was sin, because you said it was indeed sin. But, like good old Aquila fashion it was a dead end.

Do you believe smoking cigarettes is a sin?

If so, why?

[Amanah]

I was thinking similarly Aquila, what about

pride
sowing discord among brethren
impatience
gluttony
false accusations

I'm personally guilty of impatience and sometimes having a temper

[Aquila]

The trend I tend to see is that those who profess sinless perfection tend to lower the bar on what is defined as sin in a manner that makes it actually attainable. I knew a guy who cursed like a sailor, smoked, and had no issue with dirty jokes. But he'd argue that none of those things were violations of the Ten Commandments, and therefore, he argued that they were not sin. He professed sinless perfection. I'm not sure how these individuals approach the Lord in their daily prayers and supplications. Perhaps they joyously thank him for their sinless perfection and pray for assistance in maintaining it, in addition to their supplications.

On the other hand, I've known folks who argue that we sin every day. To them the slightest bit of anger, lust, pride, misspoken words, etc. are seen as missing the mark of God's absolute holy perfection. These repent daily before God, and seek His grace in all things. The only sinless perfection they profess is the imputed sinless righteousness of Christ, in which they believe themselves to stand. They do believe in growing in grace and sanctification. But they believe none of us will attain true sinless perfection until death or glorification. They believe that grace provides the shelter necessary under which one can grow in grace and sanctification without fear of condemnation for failures, sin, and struggles throughout this lifetime process of sanctification. These often claim to be "sinners saved by grace".

In my opinion... one can set the bar too low and claim sinless perfection rather easily. Or one can raise the bar too high and reduce all to being sinners who sin daily, if not hourly.

If I had to choose which side I'd align myself, with.... I'd choose the sinners saved by grace crowd.