Obedience, how far some will go to obey?

Pastor Keith · #1 10-29-2007, 12:40 PM

I have a book that is divided up into various categories such as science, religion, art, music, philosophy, history, etc.

A nice reference book intended to equip the reader with enough knowledge in various areas of study that they can carry on a conversation or at least impress upon the hearer that they are well read or versed on various topics. Each topic for each day is limited to 1 page, so any knuckle head can read it.

Well I came across this study by Dr. Milgram, done in the 1960's on Obedience; this blew me away and really shows why events such as the Holocaust and other mass atrocities can happen even among civilized societies.

Are there any warning signs that are applicable to people who faith and devotion to God is wrapped in authority figures and leaders who speak with the ultimate authority of God himself.

I don't want to make this a gripe session about pastors or leaders (of which I am one), but as a intelligent discussion about how this can happen and is it possible among OP's

Here is the link on Wikipedia, and the information there is accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Pastor Keith · #2 10-29-2007, 12:42 PM

A Summary of the experiment: (Please read the underlined portion)

The Milgram experiment was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram, which measured the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts that conflicted with their personal conscience. Milgram first described his research in 1963 in an article published in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology,[1] and later discussed his findings in greater depth in his 1974 book, Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View.[2]

The experiments began in July 1961, three months after the start of the trial of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised the experiments to answer this question: "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?"[3]

Milgram summarized the experiment in his 1974 article, "The Perils of Obedience", writing:

The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' [participants'] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects' [participants'] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.

Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.[4]

RandyWayne · #3 10-29-2007, 12:54 PM

This is scary stuff. The issue is that there is security in being obedient. As long as you are doing what someone in authority told you to do you are in effect, passing the buck of accountability. Having someone to ISSUE orders and commands also helps to eliminate a burden for many people since it is one less thing or decision they have to worry about on their own.

Margies3 · #4 10-29-2007, 01:01 PM

Did you see the report on one of the morning news shows today where they interviewed the woman who escaped a mormon cult sect that practices polygamy? She got out with her 8 children. And now one of the girls has gone back because she couldn't escape the extreme mind control that she had been raised with. Sad.

Pastor Keith · #5 10-29-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

This is scary stuff. The issue is that there is security in being obedient. As long as you are doing what someone in authority told you to do you are in effect, passing the buck of accountability. Having someone to ISSUE orders and commands also helps to eliminate a burden for many people since it is one less thing or decision they have to worry about on their own.

I did really help me to understand how a civilized and democratic society like pre-war Germany, which led the world in many fields, including scholarly theology, can all of sudden embrace and practice the most horrible and savage mass crime ever perpetuated upon humanity.

The Germans were known to be obedient and respect authority, but this reveals how and why they did what they did.

RandyWayne · #6 10-29-2007, 01:14 PM

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1579211119

This is an excellent book called Angels that Fall. A work of fiction based on actual events concerning a church that started out Apostolic but turned into anything but sometime during the 70's.

Pastor Keith · #7 10-29-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1579211119

This is an excellent book called Angels that Fall. A work of fiction based on actual events concerning a church that started out Apostolic but turned into anything but sometime during the 70's.

We discussed Community Chapel at length, even had some of their former saints come on here and talk about their experiences on the last forum, NFCF.

They allowed some deviant seductive spirits in their midst, and almost no discernment.

RandyWayne · #8 10-29-2007, 01:21 PM

Then you probably know the story far more then I do. I only know the book based on a number of reviews (and reading the first chapter).

#9 10-29-2007, 02:40 PM

WE all think we can not be made to follow like a drone, but the thing is it happens ever so slowly and you don't know it is happening...others can see you change but you think they are crazy and you are right...after all your an intelligent person not given to being controled....

then you find your are in it....

RandyWayne · #10 10-29-2007, 02:43 PM

There is also a connection between church "rules" and what things ultimately turn into.
For instance, in the book I mentioned earlier, it started out as an ultra-con church and within a few years turned into one where wife-swapping was the order of the day.
Usually prison-like rules come about as A) Control and B) an effort to control the pastors (or leaderships) own carnality.
Ever wonder what a pastor is thinking when he spends so much time talking about womens apparel and hair?