Ancient Monarchians and Trinitarians

[BobDylan]

Which concept of the Godhead was older? Who were the first writing monarchian teachers, and who were the first writing trinitarian teachers? What does this say for the veracity of modern concepts on the Godhead?

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Believer

as were all heretics. But I wasn't talking about the 3th to 4th century. I'm referring to the 1st and 2nd. Off to the other thread.....see you there.

Hyppolutus quoted excerpts of "Praxaeanisms" and "Noetusisms" in his writings. Their teachings were available to Hyppolytus, just not later after they were destroyed!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Which concept of the Godhead was older? Who were the first writing monarchian teachers, and who were the first writing trinitarian teachers? What does this say for the veracity of modern concepts on the Godhead?

Well you know, with the thing about Justin, it seems that one can refer to Monarchians or Modalist monarchaisn and Trinitarians, but literary speaking it does not seem there was any full developed doctrine that resembles either exactly until later.

BTW I have heard refer to Modalist Monarchism as a Trinitarian heresy and then there is Economic Trinitarianism. In fact there were many Trinitarian heresies throughout the centuries. Nestorius was a Trinitarian. The Monophysite controversy was Trinitiarian as far as still seeing three persons in the godhead

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Hyppolutus quoted excerpts of "Praxaeanisms" and "Noetusisms" in his writings. Their teachings were available to Hyppolytus, just not later after they were destroyed!

yes, but what did Noetus teach? Who did Noetus believe he was? Remember, this is the first known modalist and Praxeas was his student.

[Hesetmefree238]

To the victors belong the spoils of war. Since the Trinitarians eventually
ruled the day (climaxing with the council of Nicea), all of the modalist writers
works were destroyed. This is very sad. I would love to read their perspective
on things, but instead all we are left with for the most part are the writings
of their trinitarian opponents.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well you know, with the thing about Justin, it seems that one can refer to Monarchians or Modalist monarchaisn and Trinitarians, but literary speaking it does not seem there was any full developed doctrine that resembles either exactly until later.

BTW I have heard refer to Modalist Monarchism as a Trinitarian heresy and then there is Economic Trinitarianism. In fact there were many Trinitarian heresies throughout the centuries. Nestorius was a Trinitarian. The Monophysite controversy was Trinitiarian as far as still seeing three persons in the godhead

I don't deny there were many within the Trinity church through the centuries that were wrong. If you recall Gnosticism was trying hard to make its way into the church.

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

To the victors belong the spoils of war. Since the Trinitarians eventually
ruled the day (climaxing with the council of Nicea), all of the modalist writers
works were destroyed. This is very sad. I would love to read their perspective
on things, but instead all we are left with for the most part are the writings
of their trinitarian opponents.

Did the gates of hell over power the church? Can you provide any writings that were from the Oneness church writings prior to 325 AD? Better yet, where was the Oneness church before it emerged out of the AOG in 1916?

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Believer

Did the gates of hell over power the church? Can you prove any writings that were Oneness church writings prior to 325 AD?

No the gates of hell did not over power the church, but the Bible does say
that there would be a great falling away in 2 Thessalonians.
How about the Bible? I believe Paul had a oneness concept of the
Godhead. Ignatius was one of the early church fathers. His writings seemed
to have a oneness tone to them. We really don't read of any writers who
had a trinitarian tone to them until Justin Matyr came along and even then
the trinitarian concepts were very vague and just beginning to spring forth.

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

No the gates of hell did not over power the church, but the Bible does say
that there would be a great falling away in 2 Thessalonians.
How about the Bible? I believe Paul had a oneness concept of the
Godhead. Ignatius was one of the early church fathers. His writings seemed
to have a oneness tone to them. We really don't read of any writers who
had a trinitarian tone to them until Justin Matyr came along and even then
the trinitarian concepts were very vague and just beginning to spring forth.

Ignatius: Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end revealed...He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotton Son, and remains the same forever. (Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians, 6, in ANF, vol 1)

Oneness do not believe that the Son was with the Father before time began, Ignatius did as well as all the other Early church Fathers

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Which concept of the Godhead was older? Who were the first writing monarchian teachers, and who were the first writing trinitarian teachers? What does this say for the veracity of modern concepts on the Godhead?

Monarchianism is a Christian heretical doctrine of the 2nd and 3rd centuries opposed to the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity; it strongly maintained the essential unity of the Deity and was intended to reinforce monotheism in Christianity. Monarchians were divided into two groups, the Adoptionists, or Dynamic Monarchians, and the Patripassians, or Modalistic Monarchians.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/monarchi.htm