Total depravity

houston · #1 08-04-2013, 12:55 PM

Total depravity (of man)? Why or why not?

Esaias · #2 08-04-2013, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houston

Total depravity (of man)? Why or why not?

Define what you mean by 'total depravity'.

houston · #3 08-04-2013, 01:42 PM

As a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

Jermyn Davidson · #4 08-04-2013, 01:48 PM

Hey!

That sounds like me!

Esaias · #5 08-04-2013, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houston

As a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

No.

houston · #6 08-04-2013, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

No.

Why not?

Esaias · #7 08-04-2013, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houston

Why not?

1. It's unbiblical. The bible does not teach it, therefore I am not obligated to believe it as a matter of Christian doctrine.

2. It's illogical. Reason does not affirm that all men are incapable of obeying God, and that simultaneously they are damned for their inability to obey God, and that simultaneously God is just. Therefore I cannot affirm it as true in any reasonable, logical sense.

People may affirm that which their own reason and conscience denies, but they cannot actually 'believe as true' that which they know to be false.

mizpeh · #8 08-04-2013, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houston

As a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

Wouldn't we have to apply that Jesus as well since he was born into this world like we were?

kclee4jc · #9 08-05-2013, 07:05 AM

I entertained the thought for a while...then dismissed it.
I do believe in the complete sovereignty of God though. Calvinism has some pretty convincing arguments..just not accurate.

Aquila · #10 08-05-2013, 07:48 AM

Esaias, ye do err, knowing not the Scriptures or of what you are speaking...

Even Armenianism believes in total depravity. It's NOT strictly a Calvinist position. Armenianism holds to "prevenient grace". Calvinism holds to "irresistible grace". Summed up in a nutshell, total depravity means that we are all absolutely fallen and to be saved God Himself must draw us and open our hearts before we can freely respond to the Gospel. This is EXACTLY what the Scriptures teach. Let's examine the Bible...

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

John 16:7-8 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

Romans 1:18-19 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

Acts 16:29-30 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

The difference between Calvinism's notion of total depravity and the Armenian notion of total depravity is that when God draws the soul to salvation... Calvinism holds that it is irresistible. Armenians do not. Armenians believe that God's prevenient grace CAN be resisted. And there is Scripture for the Armenian position:

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

John 5:34,39,40 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved...You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Heb 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Thus Calvinism's position of irresistible grace is error... but total depravity is not and Armenian prevenient grace is not.

It is prevenient grace that opens the door that leads to saving grace if accepted:

Ephesians 5:14 For it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Anyone who believes that we are not totally depraved is essentially saying that they believe that we can be saved even if the Father doesn't draw us and that we are all in essence good people. Friends... that is a plank of Universalism.