Total depravity

Baron1710 · #1 08-25-2008, 06:00 PM

Do you believe in the total depravity of man as taught by Augustine or are you more in line with Aquinas?

Baron1710 · #2 08-25-2008, 06:08 PM

Aquinas - this gives a brief view of his view of what happened at the fall.

Saint Thomas had a different view of the fall than Calvin or Luther. He did not view man as totally depraved. His will was weakened and his intellect clouded, nonetheless his nature is not totally corrupted, for as created by God it is still basically good. Nevertheless man cannot attain to salvation on his own but is in need of grace. Though the intellect is clouded, unassisted human reason can still attain to many of the truths about God. For instance the existence of God can be shown from the nature of the created universe...Because of his view of the power of the human mind, though harmed by the fall, yet not totaly destroyed, the works of the classical, secular philosophers could be brought into the service of Christian theology. Charles Murray wrote, "Aquinas made the case, eventually adopted by the Church, that human intelligence is a gift from God, and that to apply human intelligence to understanding the world is not an affront to God but is pleasing to him."

http://www.conservapedia.com/Thomas_Aquinas

Baron1710 · #3 08-25-2008, 06:10 PM

Augustine’s view of total depravity -

Total depravity is the fallen state of man as a result of Original Sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are by nature not inclined to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, as God requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will. Therefore, in Reformed Theology, God must predestine individuals into salvation since man is incapable of choosing God.[4]

Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

mizpeh · #4 08-25-2008, 08:37 PM

I don't agree with total depravity or original sin.

If a man cannot choose to do what is right, then how can God be just in judging them?

Jermyn Davidson · #5 08-25-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I don't agree with total depravity or original sin.

If a man cannot choose to do what is right, then how can God be just in judging them?

I think a person can become totally depraved or conduct their lives in total depravity.

However, I think that when we are born, we are born more closer to the ideas expressed by Aquinas.

There are many morally good people, who are not Christian, who will die and go to hell and be tormented forever. I do not want to be one of those folks, but it is clear from the scriptures that this will be the end that some will meet.

That knowledge sobers me up pretty quickly. Thank God for His Grace!

Hoovie · #6 08-25-2008, 10:25 PM

From the Aquinas view I'll take this.... that human intelligence is a gift from God, and that to apply human intelligence to understanding the world is not an affront to God but is pleasing to him.

And from Augustine's view, "The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are by nature not inclined to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, as God requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will."

Is taking from both views allowed??

OP_Carl · #7 08-26-2008, 05:07 AM

I'm with brother Steve.

We are created in God's image. We have the capacity to create, to love, to nurture, even to sacrifice for others, all without spirit regeneration.

The Greek philosophers had some good thoughts. Whatsoever is good is from God, right?

Two verses that come to mind are, "the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?" and "the things I would do, I do not, and the things I would do not, I do."

Even with the Holy Ghost, people struggle to place God's will before their own human will. Everything that is unpleasant about humanity derives from selfishness.

Baron1710 · #8 08-26-2008, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

From the Aquinas view I'll take this.... that human intelligence is a gift from God, and that to apply human intelligence to understanding the world is not an affront to God but is pleasing to him.

And from Augustine's view, "The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are by nature not inclined to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, as God requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will."

Is taking from both views allowed??

I find myself borrowing from both as well, however I find that I lean more towards Aquinas than Augustine. The logical conclusion of Augustine is that we have no choice and the image of God is so destroyed in us that we cannot even chose God, It all rests on God and even our choice is not our own.

I feel that Aquinas' view allows for the image of God in man to manifest and that our reason is not so flawed that we cannot find God. We see flashes of God in humanity all the time, when a soldier throws himself on an explosive to save those around him, when someone steps in and protects a stranger at their own peril, we see glimpses of the image of God. I don’t think that original sin eradicated the image of God or our ability to reason and understand.