Is This Trinity Or Oneness

Sam · #1 10-30-2010, 03:00 PM

Some time ago I heard from an individual who questioned whether I was trinity or not. He is part of a UPC near here. I do not know him but someone had forwarded him an email I had sent out.

This is part of my answer to him. I don't have a copy of the other email I sent him. This one is a follow up and description of what I believe about who Jesus is.
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Trinity, triunity, triune God, three persons, three manifestations, three personalities, three personas, three modes. None of these terms are in the Bible. But some of us use some of these words from time to time. Just because these words are not in the Bible does not mean they cannot be used. Like you said, we use the word rapture and that word is not found in the Bible.

Trinity? Oneness? Why do we even use labels like this?

I don't like these labels, however, if I have to I can say that I am Oneness and I am also Trinity.

I'm Oneness. I believe in one God. I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all one, one God --not three gods.

I'm Trinity. Trinity is an abbreviation of tri (three) and unity (united or one). I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all one, one God --not three gods.

I believe that God is an invisible spirit who fills all space. He is separate from His creation. This is called His transcendence.

I also believe that the one God is immanent, or close to His creation and interacts with it.

God is an invisible spirit who throughout the Old Testament has revealed Himself to humankind as the angel (messenger) of JHVH. This messenger was both the One who sent and the One who was sent. He was God above all and separate from humanity and at the same time was God among us humans. He was the invisible God who became visible. He was the hidden God who was revealed or made manifest. As the distant God come near, or as the hidden God revealed, He was called the Word, or the Logos, or the Memra, or the glory of the Messiah, or Ha Kavod.

He appeared many times in the Old Testament and interacted with humankind. He appeared to Abram. He wrestled with Jacob. He appeared to Moses in a burning bush. He appeared to many in Israel as sitting on a throne or as a pillar of fire or pillar of cloud. He appeared to Isaiah as God above the temple, filling the temple. He appeared as a fourth man in a furnace. Etc. Etc. These were temporary manifestations or revelations of God. This was God revealed. That temporary revelation, that Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

After establishing the deity and the humanity of the Logos/Word/Memra/Ha Kavod, in verses 1 through 17 of the Gospel named after him, the apostle John went on in verse 18 of that first chapter and said, "No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known]." Amplified Bible

In the first chapter of First John, the Apostle described this Word/Logos/Memra/Ha Kavod as
the one who was from the beginning,
the one they heard with their ears,
the one they saw with their eyes,
the one they observed over a period of time,
the one their hands had handled.
the Word.

In other words, when Jesus took on humanity, He was the One true God of the Old Testament, the invisible God who had made Himself visible over the years and who had appeared to and interacted with humankind. He was God the sender and God the sent one.

The doctrine of the trinity is an attempt to understand and explain God. It was developed over the years. It was an attempt to explain the God of the Hebrews in Latin and Greek terms and now later on into English terms. No wonder we've got it so convoluted and difficult.

In the Old Testament, God was

1 the Father --the One who was the creator and originator of all, the one Who was above all and sovereign over all.

2 the Word --God revealed, localized, made known, among humankind and interacting with humankind

3 the Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Holy Ghost, etc) --God working upon, working among, working within people and things, influencing, empowering, changing, etc.

In the New Testament, God is

1 the Father --the One who was the creator and originator of all, the one Who was above all and sovereign over all.

2 the Word/Son --God revealed, localized, made known, among humankind and interacting with humankind God manifest in flesh to die for the sins of humankind

3 the Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Holy Ghost, Spirit of Jesus Christ, Christ in us, Jesus living in our heart, etc) --God working upon, working among, working within people and things, influencing, empowering, changing, etc.

Is this Oneness or Trinity?

The answer is "yes."

Praxeas · #2 10-30-2010, 03:20 PM

Sam can you post the condensed "Cliff notes" version?

TGBTG · #3 10-30-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

In other words, when Jesus took on humanity, He was the One true God of the Old Testament, the invisible God who had made Himself visible over the years and who had appeared to and interacted with humankind. He was God the sender and God the sent one.

Not very sure the trinity camp will agree with the emboldened statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

In the Old Testament, God was

1 the Father --the One who was the creator and originator of all, the one Who was above all and sovereign over all.

2 the Word --God revealed, localized, made known, among humankind and interacting with humankind

3 the Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Holy Ghost, etc) --God working upon, working among, working within people and things, influencing, empowering, changing, etc.

In the New Testament, God is

1 the Father --the One who was the creator and originator of all, the one Who was above all and sovereign over all.

2 the Word/Son --God revealed, localized, made known, among humankind and interacting with humankind God manifest in flesh to die for the sins of humankind

3 the Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Holy Ghost, Spirit of Jesus Christ, Christ in us, Jesus living in our heart, etc) --God working upon, working among, working within people and things, influencing, empowering, changing, etc.

Is this Oneness or Trinity?

The answer is "yes."

This is definitely not traditional trinity, it sure doesn't sound like 3 eternally existing persons...

TGBTG · #4 10-30-2010, 03:44 PM

One a different note, I stumbled on this thought...

1 Tim 3:16 ...God was manifest in the flesh...

1 John 3:8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The scriptures do not say the "Son of God was manifested in the flesh"

Don't know if you guys can see what I'm saying though...

Praxeas · #5 10-30-2010, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

One a different note, I stumbled on this thought...

1 Tim 3:16 ...God was manifest in the flesh...

1 John 3:8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The scriptures do not say the "Son of God was manifested in the flesh"

Don't know if you guys can see what I'm saying though...

There is a world of difference between saying God (A divine Spirit being) was revealed in (can mean also by , with) flesh,

And "the Son was revealed for this purpose".

One could say "John was revealed for the purpose of paving the way for Messiah" and not mean a pre-existing God person became human