Ministers Under Pastoral Authority

[Sam]

Some times we talk here about ministers/evangelist/missionaries/pastors being under authority or accountable to other ministers.

I personally think it is good for any Christian to be part of a local church and to be "under" a pastor or accountable to a pastor. I'm not talking about being under the "control" of a pastor and checking with a pastor before doing anything or making any decision. In my opinion, there are elders/presbyters/bishops/overseers/shepherds/pastors in each local church and they have a God-given "authority." This has been abused in some cases and some local churches have become cults where everything is controlled by a dictatorial pastor. But I do think there is a moderate, middle of the road position that fits within the guidelines of Scripture.

I'm 71 years old. I became a Christian over 50 years ago. I preached my first sermon over 50 years ago. I go to a small church and the pastor is the age of my children. If I know that I am not going to be in a Sunday service or at the weekend outreach, I ordinarily let him know personally, by phone, or by text message. Also, if I am going to be preaching somewhere, I let him know. This is not to "get his permission" but just to keep him informed. I also am on the Home and Hospital Visitation Team for another Church. After we make a visit, we file a report to a pastor who oversees that area of ministry. We also include the pastor over the prayer ministry on copy. When I make the report I also include my pastor on copy just to let him know what I am doing.

On another forum there was a discussion about the Apostles Paul and Peter and if they were accountable to someone or not. I responded with a couple of posts and I will include them here in this thread.

[Sam]

The traditional date for Paul's conversion recorded in Acts chapter 9 is January 25, AD 32.

After spending three days in Damascus, a disciple named Ananias came in to him, prayed for him, ministered the Holy Spirit Baptism to him and told him to get baptized in water. Right away he began to preach in the synagogues. then he disappeared for a while and spent some time in Arabia. Three years after his conversion (AD 35) he went to Jerusalem (Gal 1:18-20; Acts 9:26-27) where he spent 15 days and Barnabas vouched for him to the Apostles Peter and James there. He then disappears for a while. Later Barnabas was sent by the Jerusalem Church to a new church in Antioch to check them out because of the Gentile believers there. This is recorded in Acts 11:19-26 and happened around AD 42. Barnabas was impressed and realized that Gentiles could be saved without becoming Jews first so he went to find Saul and bring him there because he knew Saul was called to minister to Gentiles. They assembled with the church at Antioch for about a year when a prophet named Agabus came down from Jerusalem (in the 43/44 AD time period) and prophesied a famine. There was a poor harvest in AD 45 and then in AD 46 the harvest failed. The church in Antioch sent Barnabas, Titus, and Saul to Jerusalem with help for the church. This would be 14 years after Paul's conversion and he refers to this trip in Galatians 2:1-10 and that he had gone up "by revelation" referring to the Antioch church's response to the prophecy of Agabus and the help they sent to the Jerusalem church. Paul says that what he had been preaching all along lined up with what the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem were preaching and they gave him the right hand of fellowship.

In Acts 13:1-2 Paul is listed as a teacher and prophet in the Antioch assembly and was called to go out as a missionary. After fasting, prayer, and hands being laid upon them Paul, Barnabas, and John Mark departed in the spring of AD 47 (March 5 would have been the beginning of the spring sailing season) for what we call Paul's first missionary journey. He returned to the Antioch church around August of AD 49 and reported what God had done. This is recorded in Acts 14:27-28.

Paul was in Antioch in late AD 49 when some came from Jerusalem preaching that circumcision and law keeping were required. This is referenced in Gal 2:11-21 and Acts 15:1-2 and resulted in another trip to Jerusalem where in AD 49/50 it was determined that Jewish Christians could keep the law if they wanted to but Gentile Christians would not be required to. This is recorded in Acts 15:4-21. Paul, Barnabas, Barsabas, and Silas returned to Antioch with a letter from the leaders in Jerusalem. This is recorded in Acts 15:22-35

In the spring of AD 50 Paul started what we call his second missionary journey from Antioch (ref Acts 15:36-41). This missionary journey is recorded in Acts 16, 17, and 18 and at its completion, Paul returned to Antioch in the summer of AD 53 as recorded in Acts 18:22. But first he went to Jerusalem to observe the Passover which took place March 22, AD 53 (ref Acts 18:21-22).

His third missionary journey started out from Antioch (Acts 18:23) in the summer of AD 53. This journey is recorded in Acts 18:23-21:14 when Paul came to Jerusalem in mid May AD 57 and was arrested. He later was taken as a prisoner to Rome where we find him in Acts chapter 28

If you go through the rambling above and check out the referenced Scriptures you get a pretty good idea of the chronology of much of Paul's ministry. He did meet with the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem a couple of times and what he was preaching lined up to what they were preaching. His first and second missionary journeys began and ended at Antioch. His third missionary journey began at Antioch and finished in Jerusalem. So, it would seem to me that for much of his ministry Paul considered the Church at Antioch to be his "home church" and since he was commissioned from there he may have considered the elders/pastors/bishops there to be "over him" in the Lord.

[Sam]

As far as Peter being "under a pastor" I don't have a clear answer.

In the winter of AD 31/32 when Philip went to Samaria for that revival, it seems many were converted and healed but had not received the Holy Ghost baptism. This is recorded in Acts 8:4-13. When this news came to the church at Jerusalem, Peter and John were sent to Samaria to minister the Holy Ghost Baptism to the folks there (ref Acts 8:14-25). So, it appears Peter was "under" the authority of the Jerusalem Church which seems to be presided over by the Apostle James (ref Acts 15:13; Gal 1:19; 2:9 and Acts 21:18). Also when Peter went to Cornelius and other "uncircumcised" Gentiles in Acts chapter 10 (AD 38) he was afterward called upon by "the apostles and brethren" in Jerusalem for an explanation. So, it seems to me Peter was "under" the authority of James, Bishop of Jerusalem.

At least these are my opinions from the way I see the story told in the Book of Acts and elsewhere.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Sam

Some times we talk here about ministers/evangelist/missionaries/pastors being under authority or accountable to other ministers.

I personally think it is good for any Christian to be part of a local church and to be "under" a pastor or accountable to a pastor. I'm not talking about being under the "control" of a pastor and checking with a pastor before doing anything or making any decision. In my opinion, there are elders/presbyters/bishops/overseers/shepherds/pastors in each local church and they have a God-given "authority." This has been abused in some cases and some local churches have become cults where everything is controlled by a dictatorial pastor. But I do think there is a moderate, middle of the road position that fits within the guidelines of Scripture.

I'm 71 years old. I became a Christian over 50 years ago. I preached my first sermon over 50 years ago. I go to a small church and the pastor is the age of my children. If I know that I am not going to be in a Sunday service or at the weekend outreach, I ordinarily let him know personally, by phone, or by text message. Also, if I am going to be preaching somewhere, I let him know. This is not to "get his permission" but just to keep him informed. I also am on the Home and Hospital Visitation Team for another Church. After we make a visit, we file a report to a pastor who oversees that area of ministry. We also include the pastor over the prayer ministry on copy. When I make the report I also include my pastor on copy just to let him know what I am doing.

On another forum there was a discussion about the Apostles Paul and Peter and if they were accountable to someone or not. I responded with a couple of posts and I will include them here in this thread.

So Sam, what authority do these persons have?

I have highlighted your words that are your understanding that these roles have a God given authority.

Authority is revealed as a dominion over something or some persons, so what is this authority and who is subject to it?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by tbpew

So Sam, what authority do these persons have?

I have highlighted your words that are your understanding that these roles have a God given authority.

Authority is revealed as a dominion over something or some persons, so what is this authority and who is subject to it?

In my opinion:

Hebrews 13:7, 17, 24 speak of leaders who have authority and responsibility for others. It is my understanding that this would be in the church. Romans 13:1-7 speak of civil rulers as being God's servants/ministers and how we should pay taxes to them. The Romans 13 passage does not refer to church.

1 Timothy 3:5 seems to compare ruling/heading/overseeing a family to doing the same in a local church.

1 Timothy 5:17 speaks of elders/presbyters ruling

The Apostle Peter, an elder himself, encourages elders to take the oversight over the flock/church and to shepherd/feed them in 1 Peter 5:1-4. This is not to be done as "lords over God's heritage but being examples to the flock."

In Acts chapter 20 when the Apostle Paul was on his way to Jerusalem, he called the elders of the church at Ephesus to a meeting. They are called "elders" (Greek presbyteros)in verse 17 and Paul calls them overseers/bishops (Greek episkopos) in verse 28 and tells them to shepherd/feed the sheep.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Sam

Some times we talk here about ministers/evangelist/missionaries/pastors being under authority or accountable to other ministers.

I personally think it is good for any Christian to be part of a local church and to be "under" a pastor or accountable to a pastor. I'm not talking about being under the "control" of a pastor and checking with a pastor before doing anything or making any decision. In my opinion, there are elders/presbyters/bishops/overseers/shepherds/pastors in each local church and they have a God-given "authority." This has been abused in some cases and some local churches have become cults where everything is controlled by a dictatorial pastor. But I do think there is a moderate, middle of the road position that fits within the guidelines of Scripture.

I'm 71 years old. I became a Christian over 50 years ago. I preached my first sermon over 50 years ago. I go to a small church and the pastor is the age of my children. If I know that I am not going to be in a Sunday service or at the weekend outreach, I ordinarily let him know personally, by phone, or by text message. Also, if I am going to be preaching somewhere, I let him know. This is not to "get his permission" but just to keep him informed. I also am on the Home and Hospital Visitation Team for another Church. After we make a visit, we file a report to a pastor who oversees that area of ministry. We also include the pastor over the prayer ministry on copy. When I make the report I also include my pastor on copy just to let him know what I am doing.

On another forum there was a discussion about the Apostles Paul and Peter and if they were accountable to someone or not. I responded with a couple of posts and I will include them here in this thread.

People like to talk about the abuses of "authority", but they seem to forget about the multitudes of honorable men of God who have been gifts in people's lives and have changed the course of their destination and brought them to new levels of God's promises.

While their will always be those who abuse they are not the norm...it only means you were in the wrong church. It's like focusing on a horrific airplane crash and determining that you will never fly again. The reality is for every airplane that crashes there are probably a million or more that reached their destination safely.

Ephesians 4 these that hold the title of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor or Teacher are called "gifts" into our lives. Their gift has the ability to mature us. I think it is interesting that Paul said that some have a Prophet in their life, some have an Apostle, some have an Evangelist, some have a Pastor or a Teacher, but no where can you find that some have none.

Now, if everyone has someone then even the Prophet, Apostle, Evangelist, Pastor, or Teacher should have someone in their life also. In fact, for most of the abuses that you find it will be with Pastor's who have no accountability in their life.

Many point to denominational accountability, but you can't find organizational accountability in the Bible. The gifts and anointing of God transfers through people not organizational structures.

My opinion...get connected to someone. Let God lead you and allow the gift in that persons life to grow you up!

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

People like to talk about the abuses of "authority", but they seem to forget about the multitudes of honorable men of God who have been gifts in people's lives and have changed the course of their destination and brought them to new levels of God's promises.

While their will always be those who abuse they are not the norm...it only means you were in the wrong church. It's like focusing on a horrific airplane crash and determining that you will never fly again. The reality is for every airplane that crashes there are probably a million or more that reached their destination safely.

Ephesians 4 these that hold the title of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor or Teacher are called "gifts" into our lives. Their gift has the ability to mature us. I think it is interesting that Paul said that some have a Prophet in their life, some have an Apostle, some have an Evangelist, some have a Pastor or a Teacher, but no where can you find that some have none.

Now, if everyone has someone then even the Prophet, Apostle, Evangelist, Pastor, or Teacher should have someone in their life also. In fact, for most of the abuses that you find it will be with Pastor's who have no accountability in their life.

Many point to denominational accountability, but you can't find organizational accountability in the Bible. The gifts and anointing of God transfers through people not organizational structures.

My opinion...get connected to someone. Let God lead you and allow the gift in that persons life to grow you up!

Here's a article I just received:

http://www.get-hope.org/download/Man...nDaugherty.pdf

[Sam]

no further thoughts/comments on the subject of pastoral authority?

[n david]

This was very good information and research. Thanks!

I think everyone, non-ministers included, should have at least one elder in their life they could entrust with anything; and should have a couple peers as well.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Sam

Some times we talk here about ministers/evangelist/missionaries/pastors being under authority or accountable to other ministers.

I personally think it is good for any Christian to be part of a local church and to be "under" a pastor or accountable to a pastor. I'm not talking about being under the "control" of a pastor and checking with a pastor before doing anything or making any decision. In my opinion, there are elders/presbyters/bishops/overseers/shepherds/pastors in each local church and they have a God-given "authority." This has been abused in some cases and some local churches have become cults where everything is controlled by a dictatorial pastor. But I do think there is a moderate, middle of the road position that fits within the guidelines of Scripture.

I'm 71 years old. I became a Christian over 50 years ago. I preached my first sermon over 50 years ago. I go to a small church and the pastor is the age of my children. If I know that I am not going to be in a Sunday service or at the weekend outreach, I ordinarily let him know personally, by phone, or by text message. Also, if I am going to be preaching somewhere, I let him know. This is not to "get his permission" but just to keep him informed. I also am on the Home and Hospital Visitation Team for another Church. After we make a visit, we file a report to a pastor who oversees that area of ministry. We also include the pastor over the prayer ministry on copy. When I make the report I also include my pastor on copy just to let him know what I am doing.

On another forum there was a discussion about the Apostles Paul and Peter and if they were accountable to someone or not. I responded with a couple of posts and I will include them here in this thread.

When you are under the right authority...you have a gift in your life that will help you!!!!

I am in full time ministry yet I have a "Pastor." We live about 2,000 miles apart and he has a church that he oversees, therefore having a lot of responsibilities.

In the past few weeks we came under attack in several areas and after talking to him on the phone one day, even though I didn't say anything, he knew the attacks were weighing heavy on my.

On Thursday I came home from the church office and sitting in my living room was my "Pastor." Knowing the battle I was facing and at his own expense he came to spend a couple of days to just encourage and build me up.

I hear so many people talk about the abuses of "authority." There is another post on this forum called "Do you know the voice of God" that Sis A started. I would venture to say that too many of God's people don't know the voice of God because they find themselves under abusive authority.

Too many people of God's people, if they were to move they would find the church that is within their "organization." While there is nothing wrong with an "organization" it is man made and there is nothing biblical about it. When a person is under the right authority their lives will be positively impacted as God brings them to new levels of His glory