Pastoral authority

Kutless · #1 11-26-2007, 11:57 AM

quoting from a recent perspective........."Its absolutely necessary for a pruning process to take place in order for a church to grow. Ithe first 8 verses of John 15, Jesus talk about fruit, more fruit, and much fruit. That process is the purging process, whereby God gets rid of the old so the new growth can come. Its very important that pastors and leaders understand what is taking place. A pastor or leader can intervene and actually stop this process because of his God-given authority. He may do this by justifying, by allowing things to go on that shouldn't and actually block God"

I'm really not sure what to think of this. The article is entitled "Pruning to bring forth much Fruit"

Any comments?

mizpeh · #2 11-26-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutless

quoting from a recent perspective........."Its absolutely necessary for a pruning process to take place in order for a church to grow. Ithe first 8 verses of John 15, Jesus talk about fruit, more fruit, and much fruit. That process is the purging process, whereby God gets rid of the old so the new growth can come. Its very important that pastors and leaders understand what is taking place. A pastor or leader can intervene and actually stop this process because of his God-given authority. He may do this by justifying, by allowing things to go on that shouldn't and actually block God"

I'm really not sure what to think of this. The article is entitled "Pruning to bring forth much Fruit"

Any comments?

I always thought it was the personal pruning of a saint done by God (not the pastor) and not a pruning of the body, the local church.

RevDWW · #3 11-26-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I always thought it was the personal pruning of a saint done by God (not the pastor) and not a pruning of the body, the local church.

Shouldn't each individual be considered a tree that must produce the fruit of the Spirit or be cut down? And who is the husbandman that tends the orchard?

Michael Phelps · #4 11-26-2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutless

quoting from a recent perspective........."Its absolutely necessary for a pruning process to take place in order for a church to grow. Ithe first 8 verses of John 15, Jesus talk about fruit, more fruit, and much fruit. That process is the purging process, whereby God gets rid of the old so the new growth can come. Its very important that pastors and leaders understand what is taking place. A pastor or leader can intervene and actually stop this process because of his God-given authority. He may do this by justifying, by allowing things to go on that shouldn't and actually block God"

I'm really not sure what to think of this. The article is entitled "Pruning to bring forth much Fruit"

Any comments?

I remember hearing a pastor speak after he had lost a significant amount of people, and he said that he'd been grieving over the loss when the Lord spoke to him and said, "Don't grieve over those who have left, the ones that I want to stay can't leave, and the ones that I want to leave can't stay".

Within the next year, his church literally doubled in size, and it wasn't long after that that the troublemakers who had left came back and apologized, and were restored with the right spirit.

mizpeh · #5 11-26-2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Shouldn't each individual be considered a tree that must produce the fruit of the Spirit or be cut down? And who is the husbandman that tends the orchard?

The Lord. Perhaps the pruning is done in the furnace of affliction. Who do you say the husbandman is?

mizpeh · #6 11-26-2007, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I remember hearing a pastor speak after he had lost a significant amount of people, and he said that he'd been grieving over the loss when the Lord spoke to him and said, "Don't grieve over those who have left, the ones that I want to stay can't leave, and the ones that I want to leave can't stay".

Within the next year, his church literally doubled in size, and it wasn't long after that that the troublemakers who had left came back and apologized, and were restored with the right spirit.

Is this the pruning Jesus spoke of in John 15?

SDG · #7 11-26-2007, 01:38 PM

The fruit in John 15 is the fruit of the Spirit displayed by those grafted into THE VINE, JESUS .... primarily THE FRUIT in this context, is HIS LOVE. The disciples are compared to branches.

SDG · #8 11-26-2007, 01:59 PM

For years, my understanding of this passage was perhaps I was the fruit ... or like many have preached this passage... by asserting that in some way or another our fruit is our achievements, our level of spirituality, or some measure of me.

Here is the entire passage as taught by the Master teacher and it's full context. It's a message of showing the LOVE of the Vine by which JESUS GAVE US THE EXAMPLE -- BY GIVING HIS LIFE AND IN DENYING HIMSELF AT THE CROSS.

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

HERE IS THIS PASSAGE SIMPLIFIED IN MATHEMATICAL TERMS.

1. JESUS IS THE VINE = HE IS ALSO THE GARDENER {v.1}

A. HENCE AS THE GARDENER HE EITHER:
1) SEVERES BRANCHES THAT HAVE NO FRUIT AND PUTS THEM IN THE FIRE
OR =
2) PRUNES THOSE THAT HAVE ONLY SOME FRUIT TO BE MORE FRUITFUL {v.2}

LUCKILY FOR US WE'VE BEEN PRUNED AND NOT SEVERED!!!!

BUT BY HIS WORD WE ARE ALREADY CLEANED/PRUNED [v.3}

B. BUT, AS HE IS ALSO, THE VINE , WE, THROUGH HIS GRACE, BECOME HIS BRANCHES
= IF WE STAY IN THE VINE WE WILL BEAR FRUIT =
WE CAN'T BEAR FRUIT ON OUR OWN BECAUSE WE BEAR FRUIT ON OUR= WE CAN'T DO NOTHING IF WE DON'T REMAIN IN HIM, THE VINE = IF WE DO WE BEAR MUCH FRUIT.{V.4-5}

2. WHAT'S THE FRUIT? .... IT'S ....

1) THE PROMISE OF HIS WORD IF WE OBEY IT ...

7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

I WILL NOT GET WHAT I WANT SIMPLY BECAUSE I DECLARE OR WORK FOR IT ... IT'S THROUGH MY OBEDIENCE TO HIS WORDS THAT REMAIN IN ME THAT I RECIEVE HIS FRUIT. THAT'S PART OF THIS WORD ... IT'S NOT MY FRUIT ... I'M JUST A BRANCH. IT' S THE VINE'S FRUIT.

2) OBEDIENCE THROUGH LOVE AND IN LOVE

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

HE HAS LOVED US= NOW HE ASKS US TO REMAIN IN HIS LOVE =THE MORE I LOVE THE MORE GLORY I GIVE MY HEAVENLY FATHER = THE MORE OF HIS FRUIT BECOMES VISIBLE IN AND THROUGH ME.

HOW?

BY OBEYING HIS COMMAND TO LOVE BY FOLLOWING HIS EXAMPLE OF DENYING HIMSELF AND LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS.

THIS ENTIRE PASSAGE IS A MARRIAGE OF THE BIBLICAL CONCEPTS OF THE PRE-EMIMINENCE OF LOVE, DENYING ONESELF AND HOW OBEDIENCE IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE ...

1 CORINTHIANS 13 TELLS ME THAT IF I HAVE FAITH, PROPHECY, ETC . AND DONT HAVE THE LOVE OF THE VINE, I HAVE NOTHING.

IT IS FOR THIS REASON THAT PAUL WHEN STATING THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IN GALATIANS ... HE BEGINS WITH LOVE.

THE REST OF THE ATTRIBUTES OF THE FRUIT OF THE VINE'S SPIRIT WILL FOLLOW ... PATIENCE, SELF-CONTROL, ETC. .... IF I HAVE SHOW THE LOVE HE HAS COMMANDED ME TO HAVE AND LOVE AS HE HAS LOVED .

JOHN 15 IS ALSO ABOUT OBEDIENCE TO THE WORD AND THE COMMANDMENT IS TO LOVE. WE MUST NOT MEASURE OUR FRUIT BY WHAT WE DO BUT BY WHAT HE HAS PLACED IN US ... HIS WORD AND HIS LOVE THROUGH HIS ABOUNDING GRACE.

THE MASTER TEACHER SUMMARIZED HIS LESSON ON BEARING FRUIT AS FOLLOWS:

16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

BELIEVERS IN FELLOWSHIP W/ THE VINE ... THOSE WHO ABIDE IN HIM ....SHOW THE MOST FRUIT WHEN THEY OBEY AND LIVE ....

VERSE 13 ....13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

THAT'S MORE THAN GOOD WORKS of SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS , IT'S CHRIST'S LOVE EXPRESSED BY THE WORD INCARNATE IN OUR LIVES.

mizpeh · #9 11-26-2007, 02:10 PM

How does God prune us, Dan?

Can he use a pastor to prune us so we will bring forth more fruit?

SDG · #10 11-26-2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

How does God prune us, Dan?

Can he use a pastor to prune us so we will bring forth more fruit?

Technically, Jesus is the gardener [verse 1]... we are pruned by His Word [verse 3].

A pastor can guide us through His Word and plants the Word ... but ultimately it is the Word that gives the does the pruning and increase.