Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-24-2008, 08:21 PM
Sam's Avatar
Sam Sam is offline
Jesus' Name Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: near Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 17,805
Where Are the Dead?

I'm not trying to get a debate going on "soul sleep." I thought I would post this to show the position of a UPC teacher whose article is published in the current Pentecostal Herald.

This article is from pages 10 and 11 of the December 2008 issue of The Pentecostal Herald which arrived in my mail on November 24, 2008.

Where Are the Dead?
by David Norris

Some years ago I took a university class that examined how philosophers sought to prove the existence of God. The course surveyed numerous philosophers, and in the end we read a book written by the professor himself. As we began to discuss his book, the professor made a heart rendering profession, a confession, no doubt influenced by the recent loss of his wife to cancer. He offered, “If I knew that there was something after this life, something that made sense of all the suffering in this world, then I am quite certain I could believe in God.” Such a statement is telling. The professor’s whole belief system was linked to his view of life after death. Arguably, every religious tradition must speak to the question of suffering and must in some sense address the question of life after death. Further, people do not merely ask, “Is there life after death?” They want specific details as to the reality that a person experiences when he dies. Significantly, not only does the Bible give considerable attention to this important question, it is not too much to say that the Bible proclaims life beyond this world as the ultimate reality.

The Old Testament provides an important foundation as to what happens to people who die. There was an understanding among the Jewish people in covenant relationship with God that they would “rest” with their fathers. (See Genesis 47:30; Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12). Further, the Old Testament does not merely speak of death only in terms of “rest.” The Hebrew word that refers to the place of the dead is “sheol.” Some times the word is translated “pit”; other times, it is translated “grave”; often it is translated as “hell.” Yet, even when rendering the word “sheol” as “hell,” the translators of the King James Version did not intend to present sheol merely as a universal place of torment. Rather, the teaching of the Old Testament is that all dead, whether good or bad, went to sheol.

Jesus taught in some detail about the abode of the dead in Luke chapter 16. He explained how that in the Old Testament afterlife, both the good and bad existed n a single place. First, Jesus described the death of a man named Lazarus, about whom He reported no moral failing. Jesus explained that Lazarus was carried b angels to a place of comfort, a place which He termed “Abraham’s bosom.” Jesus contrasted the fate of Lazarus with another man, a rich man whose miserly ways were apparently indicative of a broader lifestyle wholly given to selfish living. When the rich man died, he too was brought to this same abode of the dead, but there was a considerable gulf between where Lazarus was being comforted and where the rich man undoubtedly was suffering. Jesus made it clear that not only was the chasm between the rich man to Lazarus not negotiable, He explained as well that the chasm between the abode of the dead and the place of the living was not negotiable either. Neither the rich man nor an emissary could return to earth with a message.

There are several points that become clear by Jesus’ teaching. First, those who die have consciousness. When the Bible speaks of the “sleep” of one who has died, it has reference to his body. Certainly from a human perspective, it hardly seems possible to speak of the bodies of those who die as “sleeping.” Physical bodies decay and disintegrate into the dust of the earth. Yet, so certain is the power of God to reconstitute things that have perished that the Bible can refer to the death of our bodies as merely “sleep;”

There is a second important point that can be understood from this teaching by Jesus: what happens in this life affects life after death. For some, this idea is so distasteful that they argue that one cannot take seriously the teaching of Jesus in this instance because He was merely telling a parable. Such a critique is unfounded, however, because even when Jesus told parables, He only narrated events that had their basis in fact. He told of farmers and bridegrooms and widows who needed to be avenged. He told of things that existed He never created realities that were not, in fact, true.

It is God who appoints “unto men once to die” (Hebrews 9:27), and it is God who closes the curtain between the dead and the living. (See Ecclesiastes 9:5) Yet, some people seek to bypass God’s prerogatives by attempting to gain knowledge of the dead through alternate measures. The Bible makes clear that fortunetellers, seances, and necromancers are not to be visited. (See Leviticus 19:31; 20:6; Deuteronomy 18:11). Those who attempt to cross into the hereafter by such means are actually trafficking in the realm of evil spirits. Only one thing can be expected: deceit. Real formation about the state of the dead an reliably come from only one source: the Bible.

While the Old Testament offers only glimpses of life after death, the New Testament is replete with such information. The difference between the two testaments occurs for a very important reason; while the Old Testament anticipates only the effect of Jesus’ work on Calvary, the New Testament realize its fruition. Calvary’s victory was total and complete. Not only was Jesus’ death effectual in taking away our sin; it was also effectual in loosening Satan’s power in the afterlife. Underlying the Gospel narrative is a conflict between Satan and Jesus (Matthew 4:1-11), a conflict that Jesus would win. (See John 14:30). Sadly, prior to the cross, Satan consistently tormented people to fear death. (See Hebrews 2:14-15). The triumph of the cross allowed that because of the work of Jesus, satan’s power over death was broken. (See Hebrews 2:15). When Jesus was dying, He proclaimed, “It is finished.” He was not only speaking as the One sacrificed Himself in our stead; Jesus’ proclamation was also like that of a conquering general who had defeated his foe.

The New Testament records significant events associated with the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. The psalmist prophesied that before Jesus ascended into heaven, He would first descend triumphantly to sheol --hades in the New Testament-- and ascend, taking with Him a whole host of those who had been “captive” (Psalm 68:18; Ephesians 4:8-10). Thus, when the victory of the cross was accomplished, Jesus descended to the abode of the dead and boldly proclaimed (“preached”) His total victory over Satan (1 Peter 3:19). In demonstration of His conquest, He made an open show of the devil, mocking and humiliating him. (See Colossians 2;15). Jesus then claimed for Himself the keys of death and hell. (See Revelation 1:18). Finally, Jesus ascended to paradise, but He did not do so alone. Jesus took with Him those who in the Old Testament had lived in covenant relationship with God.

Twenty times in the Old Testament it refers to descending to sheol or as sheol being “down.” in the New Testament, when writers described paradise the referred to it as up. (See 2 Corinthians 12:4). Whereas the Old Testament was oblique in its pronouncements o life after death, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would that day be with Him in paradise. (See Luke 23:43.) Indeed, the New Testament celebrates that those who die will immediately be ushered into the presence of the Lord. Paul professed, “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8).

Certainly the Bible has more to say about life after death than what we can address in this short article. And even if we would survey all the biblical passages related to life after death, there are still some things that we cannot know this side of the curtain of death. (See 1 Corinthians 1;12.) Yet, what we do know is enough. We do know that this life is merely the vestibule of eternity, the antechamber to the hereafter. We know that compared to eternity, even severe and prolonged suffering is just “light affliction ... for a moment” (2 Corinthians 4:17). And finally, we know that the Bible’s invitation to faith is actually an invitation to hope. If you are a hurting person, the church is still inviting, Jesus is still saving , and heaven is still waiting for you.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-24-2008, 08:26 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,052
Re: Where Are the Dead?

I believe that the saints under the New Covenant immediately pass into the presence of the Lord upon death. The unrighteous dead are immediately confined in Hell. When all are resurrected from the dead all men will then stand before God and receive their final judgment. The saints pass into a blessed eternity with their reward, the unrighteous are cast into the Lake of Fire.

That's my personal belief.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-24-2008, 08:31 PM
ronharvey's Avatar
ronharvey ronharvey is offline
Study Advocate


 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sellersburg, IN
Posts: 670
Re: Where Are the Dead?

If he taught Soul Sleep, he would have not been published at all.

He would not even have been able to hold a license with the UPC.

How else would the article have been written?
__________________
Ron Harvey
http://www.rccs.info

Remember, your day is only as good as the strength of the table you're dancing on!

::
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-24-2008, 08:59 PM
Sam's Avatar
Sam Sam is offline
Jesus' Name Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: near Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 17,805
Re: Where Are the Dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronharvey View Post
If he taught Soul Sleep, he would have not been published at all.

He would not even have been able to hold a license with the UPC.

How else would the article have been written?
When I came to Ohio in 1957 my pastor was Bro. F.E. Curts. He was Dist. Supt. of the UPC Ohio District. I went to that church until 1963 or 64. Bro. Curts taught soul sleep. I don't know if he ever had any problem with it. He was Dist. Supt. until 1968 or 69.
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis

Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-24-2008, 09:13 PM
Cindy's Avatar
Cindy Cindy is offline
Forever Loved Admin


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 26,537
Re: Where Are the Dead?

What about 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-25-2008, 08:17 AM
Steve Epley's Avatar
Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,903
Re: Where Are the Dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
When I came to Ohio in 1957 my pastor was Bro. F.E. Curts. He was Dist. Supt. of the UPC Ohio District. I went to that church until 1963 or 64. Bro. Curts taught soul sleep. I don't know if he ever had any problem with it. He was Dist. Supt. until 1968 or 69.
What is commonly caused soul sleep was taught by many pioneers such as G. T. Haywood, Robert Tobin, R. C. Lawson and I believe S. G.Norris?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-25-2008, 10:13 AM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
Re: Where Are the Dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronharvey View Post
If he taught Soul Sleep, he would have not been published at all.

He would not even have been able to hold a license with the UPC.

How else would the article have been written?
They are allowed to teach soul sleep. They cannot be part of the group tho if they teach the Biblical doctrine of the death of the wicked soul ****annihilation.

I know one who knows it but values his fellowship with them to much IMO to teach it openly.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-25-2008, 12:07 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
Re: Where Are the Dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipas View Post
I believe that the saints under the New Covenant immediately pass into the presence of the Lord upon death. The unrighteous dead are immediately confined in Hell. When all are resurrected from the dead all men will then stand before God and receive their final judgment. The saints pass into a blessed eternity with their reward, the unrighteous are cast into the Lake of Fire.

That's my personal belief.
I agree totally.

Quote:
Indeed, the New Testament celebrates that those who die will immediately be ushered into the presence of the Lord. Paul professed, “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8).
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-25-2008, 02:30 PM
bkstokes's Avatar
bkstokes bkstokes is offline
Jesus is the Christ


 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,484
Re: Where Are the Dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I agree totally.
Interesting note,

I was speaking with a coworker yesterday about death and being with the Lord. He actually combined the theory of soul sleep and being with the Lord. He virtually said that he thought when a person died --it was like they were instantly in the rapture. He stated that because God was eternal and was not limited in time, then He did not always do things that fit in a linear time frame. Since yesterday, I have been calling him Mr. Quantum Physics.

Just a thought, not saying that I prescribe to it.
__________________
If ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24

Mone me, amabo te, si erro

No real problem exists over the use of "The Name" in everthing else done in the Church. Why then should there exist great controversy over the use of the "The Name of the Godhead" in water baptism?
Kevin J. Conner The Name of God p. 92
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-25-2008, 03:01 PM
jimmyrrs jimmyrrs is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 239
Re: Where Are the Dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkstokes View Post
Interesting note,

I was speaking with a coworker yesterday about death and being with the Lord. He actually combined the theory of soul sleep and being with the Lord. He virtually said that he thought when a person died --it was like they were instantly in the rapture. He stated that because God was eternal and was not limited in time, then He did not always do things that fit in a linear time frame. Since yesterday, I have been calling him Mr. Quantum Physics.

Just a thought, not saying that I prescribe to it.
I know some UPC & ALJC ministers who beleive that when a person dies they go to be with the Lord, as in heaven. That's not what I understand from reading my bible. I do beleive a persons spirit goes back to the Lord at death and the soul rest until time of the rapture or time of judgement.
Why would God send anyone to heaven or hell at time of death only to be called back to be judged during the white throne judgement? There would be no need for it.
__________________
"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go."
Winston Churchill
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seeing the dead Esther Fellowship Hall 39 07-24-2008 05:20 PM
Does Dead Really Mean Dead??? Charlie Brown Deep Waters 39 05-31-2008 11:34 PM
Reconsider The Dead. Scott Hutchinson Fellowship Hall 5 12-18-2007 10:19 PM
dead God? Arphaxad Deep Waters 89 10-25-2007 08:48 PM
HELLO! This place is DEAD! Hoovie Fellowship Hall 70 06-23-2007 03:38 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by jfrog
- by Salome
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.