Does Dead Really Mean Dead???

[Charlie Brown]

I have toyed with the doctrine of entire sanctification in the past, and though it is a good idea, and it sure would make life easier, I see enconsistencies in it.

I have been sitting here wondering about something though. When we repent, we make a choice to forsake the old man, and follow God. When we are water baptised, we are baptised into Christs death. We are to become a new creature. Old things are to "pass away", and all things are become new. This scripture indicates a changing of the guard, if you will. Those things of the pass are to perish out of our lives, and those new things embraced.


Now as to my question........I have heard it stated many times that "while we are here in this flesh, we are going to have trouble with it". So what does it mean for the old man to be dead? Is he really dead, or just sleeping, and when he wakes, we get into trouble? When Paul says that our old man is crucified with Christ, what is crucified?

DOES DEAD REALLY MEAN DEAD?????

[Carpenter]

Sometimes we have a difficult time accepting the grace of God and therefore come to the innacurate conclusion that our sin was too much for the blood of Jesus to overcome.

It has to do with faith, the faith that Jesus shed blood has washed away our sins and that we are clean before him. The old man, the guilty man, the uncovered man is dead. Jesus blood has no effect on sin by a man who has not been covered by the blood. That man is the current and existing Adam.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We are now covered by his blood by grace through faith.

Acknowledging to ourselves that we are forgiven is a tough thing to do.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Charlie Brown

I have toyed with the doctrine of entire sanctification in the past, and though it is a good idea, and it sure would make life easier, I see enconsistencies in it.

I have been sitting here wondering about something though. When we repent, we make a choice to forsake the old man, and follow God. When we are water baptised, we are baptised into Christs death. We are to become a new creature. Old things are to "pass away", and all things are become new. This scripture indicates a changing of the guard, if you will. Those things of the pass are to perish out of our lives, and those new things embraced.


Now as to my question........I have heard it stated many times that "while we are here in this flesh, we are going to have trouble with it". So what does it mean for the old man to be dead? Is he really dead, or just sleeping, and when he wakes, we get into trouble? When Paul says that our old man is crucified with Christ, what is crucified?

DOES DEAD REALLY MEAN DEAD?????

Paul also wrote :1 Cor 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

[SDG]

Is there a struggle ... then??? ... if Paul says he must die daily ...

but seemingly admits that their is a battle between the Spirit and our flesh ....

Romans 7

The Law and Sin

7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.


13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.



Some would say he's speaking in the past tense ... yet others say his grammar is unclear .and suggests a present state..

[Charlie Brown]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Paul also wrote :1 Cor 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Context.


Paul was not saying that he died every day in the way you have read it. The chapter is concerning the resurrection of the dead. What Paul is saying is that he puts his life in jepardy every day for the gospel....and for what reason, if there is no resurrection.

[Ron]

The problem isn't that the old man isn't dead, it is just that he keeps on trying to resurrect!

[Charlie Brown]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Is there a struggle ... then??? ... if Paul says he must die daily ...

but seemingly admits that their is a battle between the Spirit and our flesh ....

Romans 7

The Law and Sin

7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.


13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.



Some would say he's speaking in the past tense ... yet others say his grammar is unclear .and suggests a present state..

I look at this text as I would a symphony that builds to its crashino, with the finale being "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

We in ourselves will always struggle. That is why we are commanded to not live after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Those that live after the Spirit do not mind the things of the flesh.

Maybe we just ain't spiritual enough!

[SDG]

crashino ... or crescendo????

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Charlie Brown

I have toyed with the doctrine of entire sanctification in the past, and though it is a good idea, and it sure would make life easier, I see enconsistencies in it.

I have been sitting here wondering about something though. When we repent, we make a choice to forsake the old man, and follow God. When we are water baptised, we are baptised into Christs death. We are to become a new creature. Old things are to "pass away", and all things are become new. This scripture indicates a changing of the guard, if you will. Those things of the pass are to perish out of our lives, and those new things embraced.


Now as to my question........I have heard it stated many times that "while we are here in this flesh, we are going to have trouble with it". So what does it mean for the old man to be dead? Is he really dead, or just sleeping, and when he wakes, we get into trouble? When Paul says that our old man is crucified with Christ, what is crucified?

DOES DEAD REALLY MEAN DEAD?????

Maybe Paul is speaking of two different things. I guess you would have to define the "old man" and the new creature. Is the "old man" speaking of our flesh with its sinful nature or something else?

Does being new creatures in Christ mean we don't struggle with the flesh.

Concerning "I die daily", here is another translation:

1Co 15:31 [I assure you] by the pride which I have in you in [your fellowship and union with] Christ Jesus our Lord, that I die daily [I face death every day and die to self]. Amp

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ron

The problem isn't that the old man isn't dead, it is just that he keeps on trying to resurrect!

If this be true ... I thought repentance "killed" the old mand, baptism "buried" the old man .... and the HG means resurrection ...