Why the antagonism towards Holiness?

holinesspk · #1 08-04-2008, 11:13 PM

I dont mean to seem like I have an agenda on here, I really dont, nor do I wish to seem like I am beating a dead horse, but I got to thinking while reading responses to another thread I posted about the holiness people article.

I guess I really dont understand the antagonism towards holiness standards. I have heard everything from it being just rules, to it being dictatorship, etc. A lot of people hate standards. They preach against it, they disfellowship over it, they mock it, etc. Why? Standards are simply there to keep us out of hell. Some will say its forced on them. Well maybe it is. But here is something to think about. I would rather do to much, than not enough. For instance, our family does not believe in going to restaurants that serve alcohol. Its a conviction we have. My point here is that I would rather Jesus tell me that wasnt necessary, than to tell me it was and I failed. There isnt anything worth missing Heaven over. Not one thing. I dont think many people get that concept.

And this isnt directed at anyone in particular, but if not giving up your tv is worth missing Heaven over, be my guest. If hollywood, jewelry, immodesty, and holiness in general are worth missing heaven over, be my guest. My goal is Heaven, and if that means I give up things here on earth, and the pleasures of this world (which incidentally only last a season), then so be it. There is NOTHING worth missing Heaven over. God may tell us, that we went above and beyond what He expected, but I would rather hear that, than hear that we didnt do enough.

I would so much rather having to say "Man, I could have had a television, look at what shows I missed!" while sitting around the throne of God.....than to be burning in Hell and screaming "Why did I ever have a television? Its not worth this!!"

I dont scare easy, but there is one thing that scares me so bad, I could cry. That is the possibilty of hearing Jesus say, "I do not know you, depart from me ye worker of iniquity." That scares me a lot. I dont say that for dramatic effect, I mean it. It just, well..........terrifies me. I would rather be well over the line on the side I need to be on, than so close to the line, that its an iffy.

I guess thats what I dont get. Holiness is there for our protection. Its a hedge God has provided for us. Standards are there to prevent infiltration from the pits of Hell. And yet, people, and even on here, they mock it, they make fun of it, call it old fashioned, they preach like a saint and live like the devil. It scares me honestly brothers and sisters. The Bible says without holiness, no man shall see God. Holiness is more than just an inward experience. Its like the Holy Ghost, if you get it on the inside, it will show on the outside. Its like the words of that old song.

"Jesus on the inside,
Working on the outside,
OH, what a change in my life!"

We need to check ourselves if we are mocking standards. I am sure the devil really enjoys that. Do some standards go overboard? Yes they do, BUT if obeying it means you are that much closer to heaven, is it really so bad? I want to be as strict as I can get, because God honors those who try to consecrate their lives for Him. Is a little discomfort really comparable to the glory ahead? I know I am probably rambling, but this just really bothers me. I dont get mad, when I hear some loopy person mock holiness...........it scares me for them. They think they are gonna strut in the pearly gates looking like the rest of the world. Lord have mercy.

(Matthew 5:20 KJV) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I dont know about you, but that frightens me. They were so strict, they could not work, cook, walk to far, carry any load, had to dress a certain way, many activities were banned, they all knew their torah from cover to cover, they were the religious leadership of the day. They were a very holy group of people. We always label them as the bad guys, big mean faced, bushy bearded monsters crying out "crucify Him!!". In reality, they were the ministers of God. They worked in the Temple, studied His word, trained and taught God's people in His ways, etc. They were good, misguided, but good people. Very holy people, and God said that except OUR righteousness EXCEED theirs, we shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Does that not move anyone? I pray for our generation. We mock the very thing that protects us. God help us!

StMark · #2 08-04-2008, 11:20 PM

Save it sister. You have to know this. most of this forum is
mostly XUPC, Charismatic or VERY VERY LIberal UPCers or
oneness. That's just what it is. Most that are moderate or
conservative just accept it for the sake of discussion or they
move on - simple as that

holinesspk · #3 08-04-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StMark

Save it sister. You have to know this. most of this forum is
mostly XUPC, Charismatic or VERY VERY LIberal UPCers or
oneness. That's just what it is. Most that are moderate or
conservative just accept it for the sake of discussion or they
move on - simple as that

Thats brother to you and dont you forget it!!!

Just razzing ya.

Well the problem bro, is that just accepting it wont be good enough on judgement day........what a scary day that will be.

StMark · #4 08-04-2008, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holinesspk

Thats brother to you and dont you forget it!!!

Just razzing ya.

Well the problem bro, is that just accepting it wont be good enough on judgement day........what a scary day that will be.

oops sorry I haven't dialouged with you long enough to know.
I remember your post from the thread I started about PKs
though - that was a great one!

some of us have been on the forum for 5-6 years or more.
we have gone round and round. sometimes members have to
take a break from the debating - usually you get nowhere
. however, the debates can be fun and do sharpen you in
the word.
when I say accepting it, we just accept that that's what the
path they have chosen and no one is going to turn them around

berkeley · #5 08-04-2008, 11:28 PM

Holinesspk,

These holy men were rebuked sharply by our Lord. Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees is not going standard-crazy. It is not being a hypocrite.

I can say more, but I want to make a friend, not an enemy.

-

Rico · #6 08-04-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holinesspk

I dont mean to seem like I have an agenda on here, I really dont, nor do I wish to seem like I am beating a dead horse, but I got to thinking while reading responses to another thread I posted about the holiness people article.

I guess I really dont understand the antagonism towards holiness standards. I have heard everything from it being just rules, to it being dictatorship, etc. A lot of people hate standards. They preach against it, they disfellowship over it, they mock it, etc. Why? Standards are simply there to keep us out of hell. Some will say its forced on them. Well maybe it is. But here is something to think about. I would rather do to much, than not enough. For instance, our family does not believe in going to restaurants that serve alcohol. Its a conviction we have. My point here is that I would rather Jesus tell me that wasnt necessary, than to tell me it was and I failed. There isnt anything worth missing Heaven over. Not one thing. I dont think many people get that concept.

And this isnt directed at anyone in particular, but if not giving up your tv is worth missing Heaven over, be my guest. If hollywood, jewelry, immodesty, and holiness in general are worth missing heaven over, be my guest. My goal is Heaven, and if that means I give up things here on earth, and the pleasures of this world (which incidentally only last a season), then so be it. There is NOTHING worth missing Heaven over. God may tell us, that we went above and beyond what He expected, but I would rather hear that, than hear that we didnt do enough.

I would so much rather having to say "Man, I could have had a television, look at what shows I missed!" while sitting around the throne of God.....than to be burning in Hell and screaming "Why did I ever have a television? Its not worth this!!"

I dont scare easy, but there is one thing that scares me so bad, I could cry. That is the possibilty of hearing Jesus say, "I do not know you, depart from me ye worker of iniquity." That scares me a lot. I dont say that for dramatic effect, I mean it. It just, well..........terrifies me. I would rather be well over the line on the side I need to be on, than so close to the line, that its an iffy.

I guess thats what I dont get. Holiness is there for our protection. Its a hedge God has provided for us. Standards are there to prevent infiltration from the pits of Hell. And yet, people, and even on here, they mock it, they make fun of it, call it old fashioned, they preach like a saint and live like the devil. It scares me honestly brothers and sisters. The Bible says without holiness, no man shall see God. Holiness is more than just an inward experience. Its like the Holy Ghost, if you get it on the inside, it will show on the outside. Its like the words of that old song.

"Jesus on the inside,
Working on the outside,
OH, what a change in my life!"

We need to check ourselves if we are mocking standards. I am sure the devil really enjoys that. Do some standards go overboard? Yes they do, BUT if obeying it means you are that much closer to heaven, is it really so bad? I want to be as strict as I can get, because God honors those who try to consecrate their lives for Him. Is a little discomfort really comparable to the glory ahead? I know I am probably rambling, but this just really bothers me. I dont get mad, when I hear some loopy person mock holiness...........it scares me for them. They think they are gonna strut in the pearly gates looking like the rest of the world. Lord have mercy.

(Matthew 5:20 KJV) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I dont know about you, but that frightens me. They were so strict, they could not work, cook, walk to far, carry any load, had to dress a certain way, many activities were banned, they all knew their torah from cover to cover, they were the religious leadership of the day. They were a very holy group of people. We always label them as the bad guys, big mean faced, bushy bearded monsters crying out "crucify Him!!". In reality, they were the ministers of God. They worked in the Temple, studied His word, trained and taught God's people in His ways, etc. They were good, misguided, but good people. Very holy people, and God said that except OUR righteousness EXCEED theirs, we shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Does that not move anyone? I pray for our generation. We mock the very thing that protects us. God help us!

You answered your own question with the part I bolded. You make standards salvational. Standards you can't back up using scripture, unless you take the scripture out of context and make it fit whatever standard it is you are promoting. This is where you are going to find opposition. It isn't that people hate standards. It's that they've had enough of someone telling them things are heaven/hell issues when they aren't. No one on this board is against someone having a personal conviction.

holinesspk · #7 08-04-2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StMark

oops sorry I haven't dialouged with you long enough to know.
I remember your post from the thread I started about PKs
though - that was a great one!

Well thanks. Appreciate that. Us pk's gotta stick together. On another note, thankfully your screen name is easy enough for me to figure out. lol!

Quote:

some of us have been on the forum for 5-6 years or more.
we have gone round and round. sometimes members have to
take a break from the debating - usually you get nowhere
. however, the debates can be fun and do sharpen you in
the word.

Indeed. I have been a member of CARM for about 7 years now. Those guys are just reprobates. Trinitarian run board. Calls us a cult, you know the drill.

Quote:

when I say accepting it, we just accept that that's what the
path they have chosen and no one is going to turn them around

Oh........ok, gotcha.

Sister Alvear · #8 08-04-2008, 11:32 PM

Well, I am on this board...and am neither Charismatic or liberal...
I have very strong convictions especially about women preachers!

StMark · #9 08-04-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holinesspk

Well thanks. Appreciate that. Us pk's gotta stick together. On another note, thankfully your screen name is easy enough for me to figure out. lol!

Indeed. I have been a member of CARM for about 7 years now. Those guys are just reprobates. Trinitarian run board. Calls us a cult, you know the drill.

Oh........ok, gotcha.

what is CARM? seriously, I've never heard of it

holinesspk · #10 08-04-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico

You answered your own question with the part I bolded. You make standards salvational. Standards you can't back up using scripture, unless you take the scripture out of context and make it fit whatever standard it is you are promoting. This is where you are going to find opposition. It isn't that people hate standards. It's that they've had enough of someone telling them things are heaven/hell issues when they aren't. No one on this board is against someone having a personal conviction.

But.........what if they are salvational issues?!? You completely missed my point. You just fulfilled what I described. Wouldnt you rather play it safe than sorry? Wouldnt you rather Jesus tell you, the standards werent necessary, than to have him tell you they were? Is Heaven worth missing on an assumption? I would rather have done to much, than not enough.