A Monumental Problem In America:

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Facts, information and articles about Secession, one of the causes of the civil war
http://www.historynet.com/secession

Lame, and lazy.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

From, "The Clever Way Jefferson Davis Avoided Being Convicted of Treason"


As a former US House and Senate member before the war, Confederate President Jefferson Davis had taken an oath of allegiance to support the Constitution of the United States.

Under the 14th Amendment, anyone who has taken such an oath and engaged in insurrection against the US cannot hold public office. According to Davis’s lawyers, that inability to hold public office under the 14th Amendment constituted punishment for his rebellious actions. To prosecute him for treason for the same rebellious actions would constitute double jeopardy under the 5th Amendment. Therefore, his lawyers argued, he could not be legally tried for treason.

http://knowledgenuts.com/2015/06/19/...ed-of-treason/

Here's what you are missing. Union lawyers also discouraged taking him to trial because, per the Constitution, secession is not treasonous or illegal.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Regionalism, heritage or ideology are incidental and really irrelevant to whether secession is legal or not. You and Jermyn keep labeling seceding States as "treasonous". Yet neither of you cab find anything in the Constitution forbidding it.

Here's a description of my understanding:

If by defeating the Confederacy during the Civil War, the Union did not prove conclusively that secession could not be legally sustained, the point was made emphatically clear in the 1869 U.S. Supreme Court decision, Texas v. White. In the majority opinion, written by Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase (a Republican appointed by Lincoln), the court ruled that under the Articles of Confederation, adopted by the states during the American Revolution, “the Union was solemnly declared to ‘be perpetual.’ And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained ‘to form a more perfect Union.’ It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?” Chase, of course, was an activist judge, like his modern Republican successor John G. Roberts, but Lincoln had earlier made the same point about secession in his distinctively simple and disarmingly coherent style: “It is safe to assert that no government proper, ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination.” In his mind, secession was nothing short of anarchy. It was also treason. “No State, upon its own mere motion” he said in his first inaugural address, “can lawfully get out of the Union, — that [secession] resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void; and that acts of violence, within any State or States, against the authority of the United States, are insurrectionary or revolutionary.”
http://www.salon.com/2010/12/19/lafa...uth_secession/

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

President Andrew Johnson pardoned everyone who fought for the Confederacy on December 25, 1868, as long as they applied for the pardon. Although former officials of the Confederacy still couldn’t hold office or vote, they were now immune from prosecution for treason.

http://knowledgenuts.com/2015/06/19/...ed-of-treason/

Pardon is not necessary where there isn't a crime.

Then please cite the article or amendment in the Constitution where secession was a crime.

Johnson did that to try to heal the country.

Furthermore, people can be pardoned who have never been convicted of a crime as away to head off any prosecution.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Regionalism, heritage or ideology are incidental and really irrelevant to whether secession is legal or not. You and Jermyn keep labeling seceding States as "treasonous". Yet neither of you can find anything in the Constitution forbidding it.

Something interesting...

The government charged Davis with treason against the United States for organizing and arming the 1864 military invasions of Maryland and the District of Columbia during the American Civil War (1861–1865). The defendant demanded a trial as the best forum for proving the constitutionality of secession, and the government requested numerous delays to prepare its case. Although the indictment was finished in March 1868, the Johnson impeachment further delayed the case. The court finally heard preliminary motions in December 1868, when the defense asked for a dismissal claiming that the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution already punished Davis by preventing him from holding public office in the future and that further prosecution and punishment would violate the double jeopardy restriction of the Fifth Amendment. The court divided in its official opinion and certified the question to the United States Supreme Court. Fearing the court would rule in favor of Davis, Johnson released an amnesty proclamation on December 25, 1868, issuing a pardon to all persons who had participated in the rebellion.

After enduring two years of imprisonment and nearly four years of uncertainty, Davis became a free man. The incomplete prosecution of his case and others' gave clear indication that the government intended Reconstruction to realign southern society rather than punish a select few leaders for causing the rebellion.

https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org...nt#start_entry

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's a description of my understanding:

If by defeating the Confederacy during the Civil War, the Union did not prove conclusively that secession could not be legally sustained, the point was made emphatically clear in the 1869 U.S. Supreme Court decision, Texas v. White. In the majority opinion, written by Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase (a Republican appointed by Lincoln), the court ruled that under the Articles of Confederation, adopted by the states during the American Revolution, “the Union was solemnly declared to ‘be perpetual.’ And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained ‘to form a more perfect Union.’ It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?” Chase, of course, was an activist judge, like his modern Republican successor John G. Roberts, but Lincoln had earlier made the same point about secession in his distinctively simple and disarmingly coherent style: “It is safe to assert that no government proper, ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination.” In his mind, secession was nothing short of anarchy. It was also treason. “No State, upon its own mere motion” he said in his first inaugural address, “can lawfully get out of the Union, — that [secession] resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void; and that acts of violence, within any State or States, against the authority of the United States, are insurrectionary or revolutionary.”
http://www.salon.com/2010/12/19/lafa...uth_secession/

Rebuttal:

In summary, Texas v. White, even if given the utmost respect, and considered binding precedent, does not stand for the proposition that no state may ever break its bonds with the Federal Government of the United States. At the same time, if it is considered the final word on the Federal Government's right to prohibit a state from seceding, then that right is far from established.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/...#ixzz4qnnSiAdE
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[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Something interesting...

The government charged Davis with treason against the United States for organizing and arming the 1864 military invasions of Maryland and the District of Columbia during the American Civil War (1861–1865). The defendant demanded a trial as the best forum for proving the constitutionality of secession, and the government requested numerous delays to prepare its case. Although the indictment was finished in March 1868, the Johnson impeachment further delayed the case. The court finally heard preliminary motions in December 1868, when the defense asked for a dismissal claiming that the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution already punished Davis by preventing him from holding public office in the future and that further prosecution and punishment would violate the double jeopardy restriction of the Fifth Amendment. The court divided in its official opinion and certified the question to the United States Supreme Court. Fearing the court would rule in favor of Davis, Johnson released an amnesty proclamation on December 25, 1868, issuing a pardon to all persons who had participated in the rebellion.

After enduring two years of imprisonment and nearly four years of uncertainty, Davis became a free man. The incomplete prosecution of his case and others' gave clear indication that the government intended Reconstruction to realign southern society rather than punish a select few leaders for causing the rebellion.

https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org...nt#start_entry

And the Federal Government blew a sigh of relief as they never could have proven secession to be illegal per the Constitution.

[Esaias]

If secession is illegal then the Declaration of Independence is overturned and invalid. Which means the existence of the Union itself is a criminal, treasonous enterprise.

But I don't see any of these anti secessionists swearing fealty to the Crown of England.

Therefore, the anti secessionists are hypocrites.

But then again, the resident anti secessionists are also "liberal democrats" and "progressives". Such persons have clearly and unambiguously shown they, like the carpetbaggers before them, are not interested in Reconciliation, but Eradication. They want to eradicate and exterminate Southern history, Southern heritage, and Southern culture. And that's just the first stop. What they really are bent on is destroying Christian history, heritage, and culture. They don't want actual discussion, they only want ethnic and cultural "cleansing".

Discussion is both impossible and stupid when it comes to persons bent on total annihilation of your culture and heritage. The prog-commies and their fellow travelers have hoisted the black flag, their band has struck up El Deguello, and have loudly proclaimed "No quarter!"

And many MANY are finally starting to wake up to that single fact. And thus, a paradigm-shifting moment of clarity is beginning to dawn on literally millions of people. They are realising the truth: it's for all the marbles.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Again, do you really believe I'd literally hang someone? Yes or no?

Let's see how out of touch with reality you really are.

Aquila, let me show you how out of touch with reality you are. You were asked a question by Originalist if you believed that modern blacks who would fly the flag of Dixie should be hung for treason? You didn't come back with a post saying that is was only hyperbole, or you weren't actually serious about your comment. You gave Originalist an AFFIRMATIVE. Like typical Aquila/Chris fashion you post and then realize that everyone thinks what you said was idiotic. You had already decided to say something so outrageous to see everyone start to respond to your lunacy. After all, that's how you get your kicks. Do I think you would actually hang someone? That's not what you said in your post. You said "anyone flying the Stars and Bars should be hung for treason." Which wouldn't require YOU to do the hanging, but the government. Chris, wake up, not everyone is fooled by your sideshow. It's over bro, now is the time you need to go get some Jesus in your life. Because the clock is ticking dude.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Anyone flying the Stars and Bars should be hung for treason.

Originally Posted by Originalist

Even modern blacks that fly it?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Something interesting...

Yeah, like you taking your own advise.