Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes and never once responded to what I proposed initially.



No, that is not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination. Find me ONE SCHOLAR who agrees with you. ONE. Quote him./ Look at these:

ALBERT BARNES

By his angel - That is, an angel was employed to cause these scenic representations to pass before the mind of the apostle. The communication was not made directly to him, but was through the medium of a heavenly messenger employed for this purpose. Thus, in Rev_22:6, it is said, “And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Compare Rev_1:8-9 of that chapter. There is frequent allusion in the Scriptures to the fact that angels have been employed as agents in making known the divine will, or in the revelations which have been made to people. Thus, in Act_7:53, it is said, “Who have received the law by the disposition of angels.” “For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast,” etc., Heb_2:2; “and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator,” Gal_3:19. Compare the notes on Act_7:38, Act_7:53. There is almost no further reference to the agency of the angel employed for this service in the book, and there is no distinct specification of what he did, or of his great agency in the case.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ; that Christ gave it to his angel; that this angel showed it to John; and that John sent it to the Churches. Thus we find it came from God to Christ, from Christ to the angel, from the angel to John, and from John to the Church.

JOHN GILL

and he sent, and signified it by his angel unto servant John; he who is the Lord of angels, and to whom they are ministering spirits, sometimes sent one angel and sometimes another; and by various emblems, signs, and visions, represented and set before John, a faithful servant, and a beloved disciple of his, the whole of this revelation.

Ad inifinitum...



It was not a message to 7 churches. It was seven message to seven churches and not the overall revelation the first verse speaks about. You are extremely biaqsed in this in obvious efforts to maintain in your own mind that Jesus is not God.



It was asked why we believe Jesus is God. I explained that JESUS IS ALPHA AND OMEGA and is ALMIGHTY. Case closed. It mjust be a clincher since yhou are avoiding that like a hot potato.

Anything about the Lamb going to God, etc., is all taken into consideration AFTER one realizes that JESUS IS BOTH THE ALPHA AND OMEGA AND ALMIGHTY. Why do you refuse to touch this?

I know why.



Oh now this is royal! "The book does not say how many Alpha an Omegas there are????????????????????"

LOL

Ok, is that the same answer you wil give for the question of hi,many ALMIGHTIES are there?

Never looked at the 'queen' James version. Your book says that's an abomination. Did you read that part?

Was using the literal translation. Literal translation says messenger.

I was making fun of you when I said that the book doesn't say how many alphas and omegas there are. Know why? Let me summarize your logic.

You brought up Rev 22 I did not. John is writing about a messenger that he is standing with. You said that the messenger was not Jesus 3 posts back because John starts to worship him and the messenger says (verse 8-9) "do not bow to me bow to God". Let's review.

22:8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things

Rev 22:9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

Then the same messenger in verse 13 says:

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.

So you come back and say: "I am the Alpha and Omega" means "I am God" and this is your basis for concluding "Jesus is God" but 4 verses up in the same chapter John is specifically advised not to do this.

So yes, I am making fun of your logic. Whatever "Alpha and Omega" mean, the same "Alpha and Omega" said "I am a fellow servant of you and your brethren the prophets and you need to bow before God, not me" and what makes it really funny is that it was said only (4) verses before your "great God insight".

As to hot potatoes I would guess that chapter 5 is one since you are avoiding that question like one.

If your bible was good enough for you then you would not need Adam Clark or John Gill or Albert Barnes to explain it. The words explain themselves. You need to go back and tell Adam Clark and John Gill and Albert Barnes that Jesus said:

18 `For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,

19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'

and then consider these words for yourself? Nobody here asked "what do you think it says" - the question was what does it say

The LAMB took a scroll from the right hand of God on the throne. The LAMB was not on the throne. Was this Jesus or not? Answer?

[CJManzell]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

And the Word (which was God) was MADE FLESH. See John 1

John, Chapter 14, 12: Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he
do also; and greater works than these shall he do;
because I go unto my Father.

What works did you do
that are greater than the works
Jesus did?

As according to God that you would do,
if you believe upon His name.

[Walks_in_islam]

Says it again in Chapter 1. Verse 6 says "Jesus made us kinds and priests to HIS God and HIS Father", then goes on to say "I am the Alpha and Omega" only two short verses later

So Who is HIS God spoken of here? HIS God is the one on the throne, and who is also OUR God

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.

7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

8. I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming -- the Almighty.'

Again: Whatever "Alpha and Omega" mean, one must have a pretty dim switch to conclude from reading about the God and Father of Jesus that this says "Jesus is God". In fact, there is not verse of scripture anywhere in your book that says it, which is why you need scholars to build a convoluted argument about it.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

That's what I said it says. Thanks for finding a "scholar" for me.

[Walks_in_islam]

Innocently wondering if you have another chapter you want to discuss?

Perhaps another scholar to explain that "yes this says that but send a love offering and I will sell you (oops tell you) what it REALLY means"

Told you Rev is the wrong book. Pick another one, any one, and let's hash that one out too. I gotta idea. New Testament isn't working out - let's use the Old.

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power

I guess you can't "approach" God and be "given" authority and be "led" anywere if you ARE God can you?
Back to the New:

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Oops. New matches the Old. Matches Revelations. If you are sitting at a right hand you are not occupying a throne though. Also matches the Quran, but shhhhhhh we don't talk about that in here. If you ARE the mighty one you can't "sit at the right hand of the Mighty One" can you? Call the scholars!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Never looked at the 'queen' James version. Your book says that's an abomination. Did you read that part?

...Waiting to read something sensible here.

Was using the literal translation. Literal translation says messenger.

Everyone knows ANGEL means MESSENGER. That changes nothing to make your argument being correct. Who cares what version we read? They all give the same point.

I was making fun of you when I said that the book doesn't say how many alphas and omegas there are. Know why? Let me summarize your logic.

You brought up Rev 22 I did not.

I brought up the references to the Alpha and Omega, in Rev 1. You will not respond to that. It is MY FULL REASON for proving Jesus is God.

John is writing about a messenger that he is standing with. You said that the messenger was not Jesus 3 posts back because John starts to worship him and the messenger says (verse 8-9) "do not bow to me bow to God". Let's review.

22:8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things

Rev 22:9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

Then the same messenger in verse 13 says:

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.

No it is not the same messenger. lol. Prove to me it is the same messenger. I showed you scholars' explanations of the reference to the angel/messenger, and all of them agree the angel/messenger is one of the many angels/messengers such as the ones I showed you were one of the seven angels/messengers came to John.

So you come back and say: "I am the Alpha and Omega" means "I am God" and this is your basis for concluding "Jesus is God" but 4 verses up in the same chapter John is specifically advised not to do this.

John was NOT TALKING TO JESUS when the angel was speaking to him. You have this so confused it is really weird. Like I said, show me one witness from a scholar's writings to prove the MESSENGER is Jesus in Revelation 1. You cannot just make these things up and expect everyone to agree with you just because you say it is so.

So yes, I am making fun of your logic. Whatever "Alpha and Omega" mean, the same "Alpha and Omega" said "I am a fellow servant of you and your brethren the prophets and you need to bow before God, not me" and what makes it really funny is that it was said only (4) verses before your "great God insight".

No, the ALPHA AND OMEGA never said such a thing.

You want to know who the messenger angel of Rev 22 is? You havbe to go back to chapter 21 to see the specific angel who was sent. And look what he is called:

Rev 21:9 KJV And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

As to hot potatoes I would guess that chapter 5 is one since you are avoiding that question like one.

Chapter 5 is an issue altogether apart from the issue I raised. Now, since I raised the issue of the Alpha and Omega in Rev 1 CALLING HIMSELF THE ALMIGHTY as my main argument, I am talking about the Alpha and Omega in Rev 1 CALLING HIMSELF THE ALMIGHTY. THAT IS MY ARGUMENT.

You refuse to deal with it. You have not yet dealt with the Alpha and Omega saying He is the ALMIGHTY!

So read it again.

Why is the Alpha and Omega shown to call Himself the ALMIGHTY and then call Himself the one who died and is alive?

If your bible was good enough for you then you would not need Adam Clark or John Gill or Albert Barnes to explain it. The words explain themselves. You need to go back and tell Adam Clark and John Gill and Albert Barnes that Jesus said:

I know the words explain themselves. lol. I am just showing you that NO ONE AGREES WITH YOUR READING TREND to say the ANGEL is Jesus in Rev 1. I gave evidence to show you that others agree with me. I did not get my belief about it from those writers, but showed you that they claimed that what I also see is what they saw.

18 `For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,

19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'

and then consider these words for yourself? Nobody here asked "what do you think it says" - the question was what does it say

The LAMB took a scroll from the right hand of God on the throne. The LAMB was not on the throne. Was this Jesus or not? Answer?

When are you going to talk about the ALpha and Omega calling Himself ALMIGHTY? That was my argument. You have yet to disprove it. How many days now have you failed to respond to my main argument.

Everything else can be explained AFTER we deal with this point, I promise. BUT THIS POINT is my main argument. Stop playing here and deal with it.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

...
No it is not the same messenger. lol. Prove to me it is the same messenger.

I did not add or subtract from what it says dude.

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'
10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:
12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.


So you are asking me to prove that it is just one story and one passage? That was done for me, because there it is.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

You don't cherry-pick your scholars any better than you cherry-pick your passages to demonstrate your points. Bet you wish you had left that one off or reworded it to "given by God to John"

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I did not add or subtract from what it says dude.

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'
10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:
12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.


So you are asking me to prove that it is just one story and one passage? That was done for me, because there it is.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

You don't cherry-pick your scholars any better than you cherry-pick your passages to demonstrate your points. Bet you wish you had left that one off or reworded it to "given by God to John"

What's your point here?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I did not add or subtract from what it says dude.

8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
9 and he saith to me, `See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'
10 And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:
12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.


So you are ascking me to prove that it is just one story and one passage? That was done for me, because there it is.

ADAM CLARKE:

It is here said that this revelation, or discovery of hidden things, was given by God to Jesus Christ

You don't cherry-pick your scholars any better than you cherry-pick your passages to demonstrate your points. Bet you wish you had left that one off or reworded it to "given by God to John"

You're misreading the context.

Anyway, you can't answer my issue can you? I will try this once more and if you refuse to deal with it then it can only mean one thing. You can't.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What's your point here?

What's yours? Do you have one?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You're misreading the context.

Anyway, you can't answer my issue can you? I will try this once more and if you refuse to deal with it then it can only mean one thing. You can't.

I have answered it. "Alpha and Omega" cannot possibly mean what you say it means if Jesus and God are in two separate places at the same location at the same time doing two separate things, nor can it possibly mean what you say it means if you say Jesus said it and during those times he is not sitting on God's throne, but was doing other things. I am mildly amused that if these messengers say one thing they are Jesus but if they say another in the same passage of the same story then OH well it has to be someone else.

Adding to this amusement is how Jesus is separated from "angels" in one book and and lumped with the other "messengers" in another (this one being the literal translation) which makes me unstunned that using one version at least helps explain your point while you really want to stay out of the literal version, for that I do not blame you at all. I will make a quiet comment that shouldn't they all say the same thing though?

What you cannot do is explain this nor can you find a passage where it is Jesus, Jesus only, sitting on the throne of the Almighty, a passage that will overcome all of the other passages sprinkled through the book where Jesus deferred to God as having given him power or sent him. All you can do is say "but.....but...... Jesus said this" without addressing the written description(s) of the visions of heaven, where God is, and where Jesus is at the same point in time, in a different place doing different things.

Or can you? Perhaps another scholar? Surely there is a real heavyweight out there that absent the words in the actual book could dish up an explanation. Innocent curiosity only. If so you could sell that too on your gospel website. Imagine the profit!

OH - Did you say earlier that Jesus was ruling the earth right now? Was that from yet another scholar? I declare that He will, but not just yet.