Is There A Difference In?

[renee819]

Originally Posted by J4Truth

People seem to ask this question a lot. Also in regards to women and modesty. The standards or dressing modestly is not necessarily just dressing different for different sakes. Also the man have the same standards more or less.

The main reason women of Apostolic/Pentecostal faith adhering to standards of dress and modesty stands out so much is because the women of our culture is farther gone in regards to modesty. Women clothes in general are tighter and/or expose more flesh. Men clothes by contrast is mostly modest.

A woman that is covered will be suspected as being religious while a man that is covered is normal attire for a man. Its quite obvious why Apostolic/Pentecostal women stand out. Go to any department store and people watch.

Someone on the forum posted a picture of a pentecostal family all wearing simple matching clothes of a black top and jean bottom. The man looked like the average man but the females was distinctly apostolic yet they were all wearing the same style of clothing.

Its the society we live in. Immodesty in women is natural and almost expected in our present day culture. And if a women is not dressed like such some deem to call her old fashioned.

For a simple example, its righteous or right to not lie, steal, or cheat. The fact that a person don't lie, steal, or cheat don't make them holy. But a holy person wouldn't do such and in that regard he won't be any different from the other man that is not holy at all but refuses to lie, steal, or cheat. Being holy is not being different from right, just different from wrong.

J4Truth, that is a very sensible answer. I mentioned before, have you ever sat and watched how the world dresses? In my opinion, most of it is ugly and immodest. And a lady, even in a pant suit, that doesn't fit her as a second skin, and a modest blouse, and her hair, neat, will stand out from the crowd, even if she is not trying to. And I imagine, we look old fashioned to the younger crowd. Which is alright with me, I'm not trying to keep up with the fashions of the world, but what is modest, looks good on me and is comfortable.

I imagine Jesus was very comfortable in His seamless robe. (Which I believe was rare, in His day) Is that why some gambled to get His robe?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Sasha

The Bible teaches modesty? Where?

Prax, you are one of the smartest people on this forum. I really mean that. So it puzzles me that you don't seem to understand that modesty is culturally driven and cannot be compared to sin that all cultures practice.

Maybe Sis. Alvear can help if she sees this post. We should have a 'tag' option. LOL!

It cannot be entirely cultural driven, since secular cultures are sinful and godless, and some worse than others. Culture does play a part as a reference, but it does not complete the picture. Nakedness was associated with demon possession in the new testament, and when the man was delivered he was "clothed and in his right mind." Heathen cultures that dress immodestly or don't dress at all should be "clothed" when they are converted. If they are ignorant, they should be taught. When Adam and Eve became aware of themselves, they wanted to cover up--and God also clothed them. So, at the very least, scripture teaches that we shouldn't be naked. That's a good starting point.

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Didn't you say that before?

At last you read what I post evidentally.

I may have, I have finally reached my senior years, and I may have had a senior moment. Did I quote it word for word, or do you remember. And By The Way, am I forgiven if I did?

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Why someone would ever divorce holiness from righteousness is beyond me.

One cannot be righteous in the eyes of God, and NOT be holy. One cannot be considered holy by God, and NOT be considered righteous, as well.

So to argue over whether these things should be called holiness standards or standards of righteousness seems unnecessary.

To me, it's just clothing. There is no scripture where clothing was ever made a big deal about except in the Law, which no longer applies.

Perhaps if we put as much emphasis on love for one another and faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel, we wouldn't need to preach about how people should dress.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Sasha, each culture can have it's own order of modesty but that does not mean the bible does not teach on Modesty. The first lesson was when God covered up Adam and Eve's nakedness.

Do we have an example of how He did that? What did those garments look like? And if we knew, do we use that as an example of how we should dress today? Remember, for thousands of years, men and women wore the same garment. It stands to reason that God didn't make a male garment for Adam and a female garment for Eve.

BTW Just as each culture has it's own norms, that goes for other areas of morality.

As I said in some cultures Fornication and even Adultery are the cultural norm.

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

The New King James Version. 1982 (1 Ti 2:8–15). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

88.49 αἰδώς, οῦς f: the quality of modesty, with the implication of resulting respect—‘modesty.’ γυναῖκας ἐν καταστολῇ κοσμίῳ μετὰ αἰδοῦς καὶ σωφροσύνης κοσμεῖν ἑαυτάς ‘that women dress themselves in becoming clothing, modestly, and properly’ 1 Tm 2:9.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (747). New York: United Bible Societies.

F Modesty, Propriety (88.46–88.50)

88.46 σεμνότης, ητος f: behavior which is befitting, implying a measure of dignity leading to respect—‘propriety, befitting behavior.’ διάγωμεν ἐν πάσῃ εὐσεβείᾳ καὶ σεμνότητι ‘that we may live in entire godliness and propriety’ 1 Tm 2:2. In some languages V 1, p 747 ‘propriety’ is best expressed as ‘to act in the right way’ or ‘to act as one ought.’

88.47 σεμνός, ή, όν: pertaining to appropriate, befitting behavior and implying dignity and respect—‘honorable, worthy of respect, of good character.’ διακόνους ὡσαύτως σεμνούς ‘helpers should be of good character’ or ‘deacons …’ 1 Tm 3:8.

88.48 κόσμιοςa, ον: pertaining to being modest in the sense of moderate and wellordered—‘modest, well-ordered, moderate, becoming.’ δεῖ οὖν τὸν ἐπίσκοπον … νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον ‘the church leader must be … sober, self-controlled, moderate’ 1 Tm 3:2; ἐν καταστολῇ κοσμίῳ ‘in modest apparel’ 1 Tm 2:9. For another interpretation of κόσμιος in 1 Tm 2:9, see 66.10.

88.49 αἰδώς, οῦς f: the quality of modesty, with the implication of resulting respect—‘modesty.’ γυναῖκας ἐν καταστολῇ κοσμίῳ μετὰ αἰδοῦς καὶ σωφροσύνης κοσμεῖν ἑαυτάς ‘that women dress themselves in becoming clothing, modestly, and properly’ 1 Tm 2:9.

88.50 εὐσχημόνωςa: pertaining to being a fitting or becoming manner of behavior—‘in a becoming manner, decently, with propriety.’ ὡς ἐν ἡμέρᾳ εὐσχημόνως περιπατήσωμεν ‘let us conduct ourselves in a becoming manner as (people who live) in (the light of) day’ Ro 13:13.


Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (746–747). New York: United Bible Societies.

2:9 in like manner also: This expression probably continues the discussion of prayer begun in v. 8. In other words, when men pray they are to possess sincere and holy attitudes; when women pray, they should be modest. modest apparel: The emphasis is that women should dress appropriately when at worship, and not put on extravagant clothes that draw attention to themselves. Propriety means reverence and respect, shrinking away from what is inappropriate. Moderation may also be translated “sound judgment” or “self-control.”

Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1997). The Nelson Study Bible: New King James Version (1 Ti 2:9). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers.

23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty

The New King James Version. 1982 (1 Co 12:23). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

In the NT sōphrosýnē and its cognates appear only infrequently; most occurrences are in the Pastoral Epistles. There seems to have been a gradual acceptance of the Greek ethical tradition in the early Christian tradition, culminating in the Pastorals (see GODLINESS, on Gk eusébeia). One should not too summarily disparage this acceptance as accommodation. It provided a defense against dualistic misunderstandings of the faith and, as a consequence, against both ascetic and libertinistic misunderstandings of the Christian ethic. According to the Pastorals moderation and contentedness mark life in this world as a life in God’s presence. In this context the sōphrosýnē required especially of women must find its referent. Thus in 1 Tim. 2:15 “modesty” means a disposition toward sexuality including both moderation and contentedness, excluding both asceticism and libertinism. Similarly, v 9 (where sōphrosýnē also occurs but is translated “sensibly” by the RSV while aidṓs is translated “modestly,” the two terms being virtually synonymous) demands that women show restraint and contentedness in all things, as is suitable to godliness (Gk theosébeia). Cf. 2 Macc. 15:12, where aidḗmōn (RSV, NEB, “modest”; AV “reverend”) occurs in a description of Onias the high priest.

. Vol. 3: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised. 1979–1988 (G. W. Bromiley, Ed.) (400). Wm. B. Eerdmans.

How does any of the above tie into what women and men should dress like, other than to be modest? And what measuring stick do we use? And how does it equate to holiness?

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Lacey

I guess we all would still be walking around naked had Adam and Eve not sinned.
But, they did, and God covered their nakedness. How can we not believe that
He still wants us covered?


Silly! although.....
When it's really cold, I do dress like that!

I dress like that too!!!

I don't disagree that our nakedness should be covered, but when talking about dress standards and holiness, where is the measuring stick on what is modest and what isn't? Except for the Bible I had as a child, I have never seen another picture of what Adam and Eve's garments looked like.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

It cannot be entirely cultural driven, since secular cultures are sinful and godless, and some worse than others. Culture does play a part as a reference, but it does not complete the picture. Nakedness was associated with demon possession in the new testament, and when the man was delivered he was "clothed and in his right mind." Heathen cultures that dress immodestly or don't dress at all should be "clothed" when they are converted. If they are ignorant, they should be taught. When Adam and Eve became aware of themselves, they wanted to cover up--and God also clothed them. So, at the very least, scripture teaches that we shouldn't be naked. That's a good starting point.

Adam and Eve were naked before God. It wasn't a sin....until they knew they were naked. What made nakedness sinful?

Compare that to jungle people who wear little or no clothing. Do they know they are naked? If they don't consider themselves naked, is it still sinful for them? And how do we teach them to dress, according to Western culture? Do you really want to tell those women that baring their breasts is a sin? Understand that they are not the ones doing so because it's sinful. And they also believe they are modest in what they are wearing, even if it's necklaces and other ornamentation that denotes who they are in their tribe and such.

God didn't make nakedness sinful. Man did.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

At last you read what I post evidentally.

I may have, I have finally reached my senior years, and I may have had a senior moment. Did I quote it word for word, or do you remember. And By The Way, am I forgiven if I did?

Obviously I read it the first time too...

Or did you mean "At least"?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sasha

Adam and Eve were naked before God. It wasn't a sin....until they knew they were naked. What made nakedness sinful?

Compare that to jungle people who wear little or no clothing. Do they know they are naked? If they don't consider themselves naked, is it still sinful for them? And how do we teach them to dress, according to Western culture? Do you really want to tell those women that baring their breasts is a sin? Understand that they are not the ones doing so because it's sinful. And they also believe they are modest in what they are wearing, even if it's necklaces and other ornamentation that denotes who they are in their tribe and such.

God didn't make nakedness sinful. Man did.

Ah, so if they don't know they are sinning, it's not a sin? So if they commit fornication and adultery and not know it's a sin...God winks at their ignorance?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sasha

Do we have an example of how He did that? What did those garments look like? And if we knew, do we use that as an example of how we should dress today? Remember, for thousands of years, men and women wore the same garment. It stands to reason that God didn't make a male garment for Adam and a female garment for Eve.

Yes. God made coats for them

Gen 3:21 And for Adam and his wife Jehovah God made coats of skins, and clothed them.

Same word for

Gen 37:3 And Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons, because he was the son of his old age. And he made him a tunic reaching to the soles of his feet.

It was by no means a pair of thongs

How does any of the above tie into what women and men should dress like, other than to be modest? And what measuring stick do we use? And how does it equate to holiness?

It ties into what you asked me about MODESTY and the Bible. Did you read through it? We weren't discussing "other than to be modest"...odd

We weren't discussing how it equates to Holiness.