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  #81  
Old 03-14-2010, 01:22 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
Floods ARE universal in the sense that they happen almost everywhere occasionally.
d'oh! RandyWayne said it first.

Great minds?
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  #82  
Old 03-14-2010, 01:37 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by NotforSale View Post
I'm a little surprised no one has brought this up. Moses, who is the presumed author of Genesis, lived in Egypt and Pharaoh’s household for 40 years. He was apparently engrained by this culture and their ideals, which would include any religious beliefs of that Nation.

Is it a valid observation, that stories such as a Great Flood were told to Moses by the Egyptian forefathers and that Biblical writings contain such stories because the writer had been influenced by the myths of that time?

History reveals that Egypt did have belief in a Great Flood, with very similar connections to our Biblical account.

I think this needs consideration, especially since the story of Noah and the Ark is an impossible feat.
A lot of the Pentateuch can be better understood (IMHO) if we recognize Moses as the source of the Law (from God) and not the source of everything written in the first five books of the Bible. There is of course a discernible lack of the writer(s) ever calling himself "Moses" nor any place where the narrator ever says "I" when speaking of Moses.

Try this: Read from Deuteronomy through to the end of 2 Kings. Notice especially the transitions between the books.

Deuteronomy ends with:

"So Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of Jehovah.

And he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping in the mourning for Moses were ended.

And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as Jehovah commanded Moses.

And there hath not arisen a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom Jehovah knew face to face,

in all the signs and the wonders, which Jehovah sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,

and in all the mighty hand, and in all the great terror, which Moses wrought in the sight of all Israel."

and then the Book of Joshua picks right up with:

"Now it came to pass after the death of Moses the servant of Jehovah, that Jehovah spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,

Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel."

and then Joshua ends with:

"And Israel served Jehovah all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, and had known all the work of Jehovah, that he had wrought for Israel.

And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in the parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for a hundred pieces of money: and they became the inheritance of the children of Joseph.

And Eleazar the son of Aaron died; and they buried him in the hill of Phinehas his son, which was given him in the hill-country of Ephraim."

and then Judges begins:

"And it came to pass after the death of Joshua, that the children of Israel asked of Jehovah, saying, Who shall go up for us first against the Canaanites, to fight against them?"

... and so it goes all the way to the end of 2 Kings. It as if the same hand was at work in the books from Deuteronomy through 2 Kings.
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  #83  
Old 03-14-2010, 01:51 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

This is the reason that you will see a lot of books and scholars referring to the Hexateuch instead of just the "Pentateuch." Hexateuch means "Six Scrolls" and includes Joshua with the first five.

Others will speak of the "Deuteronomist History." This reflects the historical books that appear to have been written by the same hand that I referred to in the previous post: Deuteronomy through 2 Kings.

I'm certain most folks noticed that Moses' death and burial were described in Deuteronomy 24. It is unlikely, to say the least, that Moses wrote these words. But did you notice:

"And he [The LORD] buried him [Moses] in the valley in the land of Moab over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." I've had people tell me that Moses could have "prophesied" this part and then written it down before he died, but that's just plain silly. If he wrote this before he died, what "day" is he referring to when he said "unto this day?" He wasn't even dead yet and he's saying that no one can find his sepulchre even "unto this day?" Well, no wonder!

But I prefer to take a higher view of scripture.

Now, read Genesis through 2 Kings - reading a good deal of what we've already looked at. This time make a note of every time that the writer says "unto this day."

Just what day are we talking about here? The clues are littered throughout the text from Genesis through Nehemiah. But that sort of gives it away...
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  #84  
Old 03-14-2010, 03:00 AM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
...
And, unloading the monotremes and almost all of the marsupials in Australia while dropping off a few marsupials in South Africa seems to be the kind of thing that would warrant a mention in Holy Writ. Just the existence of those places seems to have escaped Noah's attention altogether. Besides, why did he even bother dropping off the marsupials in South America? They were headed for extinction as soon as the Isthmus of Panama formed and the placental mammals of North America migrated south.
...
I just noticed this gloss on my part. I of course meant South America here. This is where we find the marsupials. Most of them were all wiped out by the competition from the placental mammals migrating down from the north after the Isthmus of Panama formed.

Some survived - but no predators among them. Possums are among the most successful and have actually "invaded" North America via Panama.
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  #85  
Old 03-14-2010, 03:14 AM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: Noah and the Ark

All of the foregoing long-windedness about the Pentateuch may be seen as something of a start on my answer to those of you who asked about how I see it all fitting together.

There's a huge amount of ground to cover and the "proofs" that I have found (actually others found, but I became convinced only after going over it all myself) are numerous and often each one is rather expansive and requires some background as well.

I do believe that holy men (and at least one woman) spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost when it comes to the authorship of the books of the Bible. I do not believe, however, that Moses wrote the words:

"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."
Dan wasn't even born yet. His grandfather Isaac wasn't even born yet - let alone there being a city and region called "Dan" being in existence. And get this! The city of Dan that the writer of Genesis is referring to here wasn't called "Dan" until after the events described in Judges 18:29 - about 300 years after the death of Moses.

Understanding the time frame involved in the writing of Genesis will help us to understand the parabolic nature of the accounts that precede Abram's call to leave Ur (which was in a notorious flood plain).
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  #86  
Old 03-14-2010, 01:25 PM
Norman Norman is offline
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Re: Noah and the Ark

I haven't read all the preceding posts but here is something I recently found:
(go down to #9)


http://www.eas.slu.edu/hazards.html

David Crossley, Professor of Geophysics.
http://www.eas.slu.edu/People/DJCrossley/david.html
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  #87  
Old 03-14-2010, 04:56 PM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post

...I do believe that holy men (and at least one woman) spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost when it comes to the authorship of the books of the Bible. ...

Who was that woman?
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  #88  
Old 03-14-2010, 06:14 PM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
All of the foregoing long-windedness about the Pentateuch may be seen as something of a start on my answer to those of you who asked about how I see it all fitting together.

There's a huge amount of ground to cover and the "proofs" that I have found (actually others found, but I became convinced only after going over it all myself) are numerous and often each one is rather expansive and requires some background as well.

I do believe that holy men (and at least one woman) spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost when it comes to the authorship of the books of the Bible. I do not believe, however, that Moses wrote the words:

"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."
Dan wasn't even born yet. His grandfather Isaac wasn't even born yet - let alone there being a city and region called "Dan" being in existence. And get this! The city of Dan that the writer of Genesis is referring to here wasn't called "Dan" until after the events described in Judges 18:29 - about 300 years after the death of Moses.

Understanding the time frame involved in the writing of Genesis will help us to understand the parabolic nature of the accounts that precede Abram's call to leave Ur (which was in a notorious flood plain).
I don't know if it was 300 years but that is beside the point really. Yes this shows Genesis was either written or edited after the fact

NET bible says
The use of the name Dan reflects a later perspective. The Danites did not migrate to this northern territory until centuries later (see Jdg_18:29). Furthermore Dan was not even born until much later. By inserting this name a scribe has clarified the location of the region.

Gill suggests it was done so in a prophetic anticipation
wherefore, if the same place is intended here, it is so called not only by anticipation, but by a spirit of prophecy; since it had not the name of Dan even in the times of Moses, the writer of this history, unless it may be thought to be inserted by Samuel or some other inspired writer, after Moses; though there is no need to suppose either of these, seeing there might be a town or city of this name in those parts at this time, or however one of the springs of Jordan might be so called, from whence the river had its name as early, Gen_13:11; and so Josephus (f) expressly says, speaking of this expedition, that Abram fell upon them at Dan, for so, adds he, the other fountain of Jordan is called.

If it was written after the fact what does this do to the argument that God showing Moses his "hinder parts" refers to the past works of God?
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  #89  
Old 03-14-2010, 08:57 PM
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Re: Noah and the Ark

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Who was that woman?
Deborah - Judges 5 is often ascribed to her. Miriam's psalm (Exodus 15:21) is another possible female contribution. Some have claimed Priscilla had a hand in Hebrews and other writings attributed to either Paul or the "School of Paul."
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  #90  
Old 03-14-2010, 09:09 PM
NotforSale NotforSale is offline
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Re: Noah and the Ark

You know, the part of the story of Noah I really like was when he planted a vineyard...
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